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  •  ummm, yeah (5+ / 0-)

    that's what this meant:  

    What Brokaw didn't say, but which I will now, is that that's why the "lower level rich" have to be careful to save a lot of money beforehand.  It's not like your kids' going to college is a big surprise or anything.
    I guess I should say thanks for repeating my exact point without appearing to have read it.

    The 50% income level takes into account all taxes, state local and SS.  Just as everyone always notes, the 47% who "pay no taxes" always pay taxes. Just may not be federal income tax.  Well, people with higher income pay those taxes also - but they pay at a lower rate, since they're stopped at the 90K level for SS.

    My property taxes are huge.  A 250,000 house around here pays over 8,000 in state and local taxes before they even think about federal taxes.

    Again, I'm not whining.  I know I'm better off than a huge chunk of Americans.  I'm grateful we have what we have.  That's why I'm a progressive, I support higher taxes, and I am a big proponent of a much higher minimum wage.

    •  It's not 50 percent of gross, no way (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BYw

      Unless your accountant is an idiot, you're not paying 50 percent of your income in taxes, even accounting for state and local taxes.  Maybe if you drink a ton of booze and smoke a ton of tobacco, you could get close to 50 percent since those are the only things taxed at that level, but if that's the case, your problems are bigger than your effective tax rate.

      You get a deduction for your kids, a deduction for your house payment, plus all kinds of deductions that are generally not available to people making under a hundred grand.  I'm not being snarky when I say you need a new accountant.

      Anyway, thanks for being a progressive. :)

      •  That is just not true. (0+ / 0-)

        If you're paid a salary, people making 250K get the same type of deductions available to people making less.  There's no special "gee you make a lot of money special deduction" available to salaried employees.

        The special deductions come in when a) you're self employed or own a corporate business.  Then you can try to claim deductions for cars, deferred stock, or a bunch of other things. ; or b) you make so much money you can use those weird tax avoidance schemes that us working folks don't even begin to understand, like the passive incomes, or Cayman Islands, etc.

        There is also the lower capital gains rate, but that is not related to your income level.  So it only applies if you're able to buy stocks, but is not specific to people making more than 250.

    •  Not to argue but you then pay less in Federal (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hayden, CharlieHipHop

      taxes since real estate taxes are deductible so essentially those of us with lower property taxes are subsiding your taxes.  We all pay too much in taxes for what we get.  We should have gold plated infrastructure, fully subsidized gold plated public education through college among many other things.  What we have instead is a bloated military, a bloated government, a broken healthcare system.....and I could go on.  We are a mess and I see no way out.

      •  Not really. (4+ / 0-)

        You would subsidize property taxes only if mine were deductible on the federal returns, and yours weren't.   Otherwise, that part of it is simply even steven.

        Tax subsidies occur where small business owners have their businesses buy their cars, then write them off as a deductible expense.  

        The real subsidy occurs when people making over 90,000 don't pay more ss into the system.  So the percentage of withholding is much higher for those making less than 90,000.

        A lot of your other points are really well taken.  Bloated healthcare?  Check out what the CEO of your local hospital makes.  My local hospital pays its CEO 5 freakin million dollars.  That's ridiculous.  And since it's a not for profit and therefore doesn't pay taxes, we taxpayers subsidize his salary!

        •  You sound like a reasonable progressive... (0+ / 0-)

          Who has done well, although you arent "filthy rich" by any means.

          It's just that it really ticks people off to hear about how rough it is to hand over the very best in higher education, including grad school, to your kids, etc, on 250K. I dont think you mentioned public schools for your kids, so there perhaps you also paid for private elementary - high school. Also, is that combined income or is that just you, with a spouse adding to the pool?

          Thing is, the pundits, like Joe Scarborough, who now lives in Manhattan (and makes 6 million annual salary, google tells me, net worth, $18 mil) love to casually toss off how folks dont get how $250 K is a  middle class salary if you live in Manhattan. It is NOT. But no one around his table ever contradicts that message.

          He now appears to have morphed into a more "moderate" Brokawish run of the mill talking head on tax policy, as in, "Give the little people a little more, shave a few points off for the wealthy - I can sign off on that." Guess being out of office and being paid a grand salary for bantering around the Starbucks every morning has softened him up, so to speak.

          But it is at that "softened, moderate, reasonable" point, that folks get really screwed. That is the message that is massaged into people constantly by mainstream media and pols, et al - the "most liberal" ones they allow to sit around those tables. They may have on a Bernie Sanders or Paul Krugman once in a while to punctuate their ever-flowing current of "moderate consent" with a couple of slap-back waves, a little momentary chop in the waters, but it is so little, so infrequently, that it easily gets smoothed back into the main flow. At the Joe Scarborough table, no one ever contradicts his message. (Yes, I turn on that ridiculous banter as I get ready for work. It is so boring, it allows me to focus on what I need to do to get ready for the day.)

          So, point taken on Manhattan, Joe Scarborough - I live here - it is very expensive to live here when it comes to rent or mortgage. (Although you can save a lot on gas and car expenses, not having to have one to get around) but not so expensive that it makes a screaming hill of beans of a difference if the tax rate jumps up a few percentage points on income above 250 K. And not so expensive that folks who live here on such a salary arent doing very well - ie, the way most who set their sights on a comfortable middle class life aspire to live. Very comfortably. Comfortably enough, too, to have options if living in Manhattan is just too pricey for them. Manhattan is a bitch for the struggling middle class, no doubt. Point being, 250K is not the struggling middle class here, either.

          I imagine folks like Joe, the wealthy 1%, do see $250K as a rough and tumble place to be. That is the problem. Most all of these talking media heads are millionaires - Brokaw, Gregory, et al. From their ultra lux perches, fabulous comfort, $250K for the middle class in Manhattan (or San Francisco, etc) looks like a very undesirable place to be. And yet they are the ones given the keys to the talk tables and podiums, to set the narrative of who we are and how we are to live... and think.

          The problem is we are inundated with the Gregorys, Brokaws, the Joes - these extraordinary Joes (and "Janes," i.e., Mikas) on a continual loop. We see them at the table, along with their cheerful politician pals, all echoing each other or arguing at the very edges of what matters to give the illusion of a real democracy in action, all mushing into that palatable pablum, creating the story line of "What Is," in America.

          It's like how they never ever mention the "Others" death toll (e.g., Iraquis). That is going way off the reservation. Only mention of our American soldiers' death and suffering is allowed, and even that, sparingly. (How else could they keep us stupid enough to support stupid, immoral wars?) They play the game so well. They know the rules, the rules that make them rich and famous. There are so many "unwritten rules" that might as well be stamped over every surface in the studios they are sent to us from (and the halls of power in DC), because they are so ironclad and so propagandistically ever-present.

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