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View Diary: Biden gives Republicans one last chance to avoid 'fiscal cliff' (330 comments)

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  •  When the most vulnerable in our (5+ / 0-)

    society stand to lose everything should we go over the cliff, true progressives will push to get some sort of compromise done in order to avoid it. Maybe the whole thing is a ruse, and the impact on seniors and the poor will be a whole lot of nothing. Maybe. But what if people here are wrong about that. People do make mistakes, we are all human. What if it is NOT the case that this is a ruse, a hoax? What if this causes harsh pain just when people can least afford it? As a progressive, I don't feel like risking the lives of millions over a hunch. I will support whatever deal Obama makes if he thinks it is a deal worth doing. The alternative is too frightening.

    •  Barack Obama (10+ / 0-)

      is earning every dime of his 500K salary right now. Glad I'm not in his shoes. Indeed, I've criticized him, and have expressed concern over the outcome of this imbroglio--but I'm also deeply thankful he is the tough and shrewd cookie I know him to be. Thank God.

      It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

      by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 07:19:37 AM PST

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      •  Honestly, there is no-one I'd (7+ / 0-)

        rather have representing our side in this unprecedented battle against the far right. I have doubts about our leadership once Obama is term-limited out. I for one am going to savor every moment of the next four years, because I've never had a president I could be so proud of, and I seriously doubt I ever will again.

        •  He will go down as a great president, (10+ / 0-)

          warts and all.

          Mark my words.

          It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

          by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 07:26:14 AM PST

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          •  Yes, we have millions (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            karmsy, MPociask

            of unemployed, we're practically a 3rd world country, and I cannot begin to list all of the truly horrid things he's allowed or authorized [think banks, drones, violations of civil rights, etc].

            That just doesn't add up to a great president.

            The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

            by dfarrah on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:16:44 AM PST

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            •  Who's to blame for that? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wishingwell, PorridgeGun

              Who's to blame for our near-3rd-World status. It's a fair question you ask, so I'm tipping your comment.

              I just don't share your apparent conclusion that the blame falls entirely on Barack Obama.

              It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

              by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:20:04 AM PST

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              •  you and millions more of us (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                karmsy, dickensgirl

                don't understand why people even bother posting drivel like the post you responded to.

                30 years of consrvative government including 8 disastrous years of Dumbya are responsible for where the US is today. end of discussion. period.

                mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

                by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:10:31 AM PST

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                •  I don't go quite as far as you do :) (0+ / 0-)

                  in that I think the comment above asks a valuable question we always need to keep at the fore-front of any discussion we as progressives have. I just don't care for the conclusions the person has reached. They're extraneous.

                  It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

                  by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:17:45 AM PST

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            •  hahhahahhahahhahahhahahaha! (0+ / 0-)

              only comment worthy of your post.

              take it elsewhere.

              mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

              by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:08:17 AM PST

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        •  I'd prefer someone on our side (5+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          slinkerwink, Aspe4, emal, MPociask, schnecke21
          Hidden by:
          mwm341

          who doesn't offer up cuts to SS, but then I'm a New Deal liberal.  Guess dKos is lurching to the right in lockstep with the democratic party.

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:09:50 AM PST

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          •  I find this a troubling comment. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, v2aggie2

            You aren't facing what Obama is facing right now. You aren't in his shoes. We can criticize, we can express concern, but reaching such a global conclusion is all too easy and cheap.

            It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

            by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:17:52 AM PST

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            •  subterranean (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Subterranean
              Hidden by:
              mwm341

              often jumps on some of my posts to let me know he is a "real democrat"......

              not worth engaing him. he lives in his own little world and offers nothing constructive to any discussion he joins. he is a flame thrower and obviously gets his kicks by stirring up shit.

              mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

              by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:12:32 AM PST

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            •  So cutting SS is okie dokie (0+ / 0-)

              as long as the president is in a tight spot?  

              That is precisely the time when the president needs to stand firm!  Anyone can stand tall when the wind isn't blowing.

              Your comment is internally contradicting, by the way.  You say your fine with criticism (at least, you give permission by saying "we can criticize"), yet you find my comment troubling because it's too "global".  How is criticizing Obama for offering up cuts to SS anything other than a specific criticism?  

              "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

              by Subterranean on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 10:09:53 AM PST

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        •  Let's ponder why (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aspe4, karmsy, Senor Frog, emal, Subterranean

          we are having this "unprecedented" battle to begin with.

          Because repubs think they can get away with it just like they got away with it during BO's first term.

          The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:13:34 AM PST

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          •  Maybe. Perhaps. (0+ / 0-)

            Tell me--could you have done a better job by more people?

            It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

            by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:06:02 AM PST

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            •  Who knows what (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Subterranean

              could have been better.

              There was no serious attempt, and BO typically starts in the right's field.

              The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

              by dfarrah on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:20:30 AM PST

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              •  Your opinion. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wewantthetruth

                I honestly don't know what it's worth, because I don't know you from Adam. Perhaps you are a genius of some kind, a nuanced and critical thinker of sterling humanist vision, and broadly informed on all phases of American political policy. Perhaps you are a political wonk of the first magnitude, and for this reason, your global conclusions here carry some weight.

                Myself, I am, at the moment, more in the mood to trust, cautiously, my elected president.

                It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

                by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:30:37 AM PST

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          •  "got away with it" (0+ / 0-)

            it's called negotiating and what I recall in order to get a 2nd stimulus and unemplyment extensions desperately needed as well as some other things, he took the deal he could get.

            The other fun fact is, Boner bragged he got 98% of what he wanted only to later find out that CBO scored the deal and Boner learned he got nothing from "cuts" O offered and Boner was happy to accept.

            you left a lot out of your sterling analysis.

            mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

            by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:15:21 AM PST

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      •  You Gave Obama a Raise (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        karmsy, DSPS owl, Subterranean
        ...is earning every dime of his 500K salary right now
        The POTUS makes $400,000/year. :-)

        "The problem with posting quotes off the Internet is you never know if they're genuine."--Gen. George Washington at the Battle of Gettysburg, February 30, 1908

        by Aspe4 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:48:01 AM PST

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        •  Just Googled "President Obama salary" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aspe4

          and you do seem to be absolutely correct. For some reason, I'd had the higher figure in mind.

          It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

          by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:13:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think $400K is too low for the responsibility (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            karmsy

            the POTUS has. It was $200,000 up until 2001 He's the CEO of the United States federal government and commands Earth's most powerful military by far.  He should be making close to $1 million/year. Most college presidents make more than that.  

            "The problem with posting quotes off the Internet is you never know if they're genuine."--Gen. George Washington at the Battle of Gettysburg, February 30, 1908

            by Aspe4 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 12:11:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  As you say, humans make mistakes. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aspe4, karmsy, Subterranean

      What if it's Mr. Obama who is wrong?

      I will support whatever deal Obama makes if he thinks it is a deal worth doing.

      When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

      by PhilJD on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 07:32:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because when you can take (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Beetwasher, a2nite, karmsy

        two roads, and one goes over a cliff, the more prudent path to take is the other road. It's about risk vs reward in an uncertain world. You don't take the world's largest economy over a cliff lightly.

      •  Thankfully--and we do need to give thanks (3+ / 0-)

        for this--you are not in the Oval Office, negotiating this deal right now. Rather, you are sitting in your cozy home, at your laptop, with a cup of coffee at your elbow, playing armchair quarterback.

        You pay the president's salary, with your tax dollars, to cut his holiday vacation short and deal with these awful people who are dealing in bad faith, who wish him the very worst. You are entrusting Obama to do a vital deal, shrewdly, with compassion.

        That's why we have representative, rather than participatory, democracy. It isn't you. Just remember that.

        It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

        by karmsy on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:03:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama is never wrong (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dfarrah, Aspe4, Senor Frog

        according to a certain faction at dKos.  He can roll over on just about any issue and there are those here who will defend him.  It's like they see politics as a sport and root for their team no matter how bad they play.

        "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

        by Subterranean on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:12:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  obama is never right (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wewantthetruth, dickensgirl

          according to a certain faction at dkos...he can accomplish something and there are those here who will attack him...It's like they see politics as a sport and root against their scapegoat no matter how well they play.

          Coming Attraction: "Tea Party II - now with more stupid!"

          by memofromturner on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:52:34 AM PST

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          •  subterranean (0+ / 0-)

            is a classic flame thrower. nothing constructive to offer to any discussion and just here to throw darts. according to him, unless you're here to shit on O, your opinion does not matter.

            mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

            by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:21:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Certainly a flame thrower of late (0+ / 0-)

              Getting betrayed by a president a few months after his historic reelection will do that to a person.  Obama campaigned against cuts to SS, now he's proposing them to Boehner.  I've never felt so burned in politics as I do now.  

              If by constructive, you mean that I do not aid you in your construction of an alternate reality that helps you avoid the truth, you nailed it.  You need a warm fuzzy place to nurse your adulation of Obama.  That's cool, I can understand.  What I do not appreciate is you dumping on ME because I point out the truth.  

              "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

              by Subterranean on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 10:02:29 AM PST

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          •  I've never seen that sentiment here (0+ / 0-)

            at dKos.  Ever.

            There are those who give him credit when deserves it, and those who root for him no matter how bad he plays.  Rah rah, go team Obama!  

            I thought he kicked ass in the second and third debates, and plainly said so here at dKos.  I also ripped him for the first debate.  People like yourself whined at me after the first debate (surprising!), but strangely they commmented after the 2nd and 3rd debates that Obama had made up for the first debate (which he planned to lose so he would win the last two - sneaky!).

            "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

            by Subterranean on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 10:05:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  The "cliff" may have less impact on (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bear83, TrueBlueDem, mmacdDE, emal, schnecke21

      the most vulnerable than some of these deals being floated. There is no law that says that extended unemployment can't be extended separate from the "fiscal cliff" show.

    •  please stop (0+ / 0-)

      do you even know the facts on what would happen and timing? if not, you should. easy enough to find.

      this is all ginned up to get people to make irrational decisions and posts like this don't do anything for the discussion.

      we go over the curb which Progressives like Howard Dean and Robert Reich are openly advocating.  they are firm in their belief this is the best for the country. only way to get defense cuts and dems go back in an get tax cuts for 98% retro to jan 1.......lets see Boner not bring that bill to the floor.

      seriously, read what Dean and Reich are saying on this subject and you may feel differently or at very least a little less anxious.

      mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

      by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:07:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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