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View Diary: I Need a Permit to Own Bottle Rockets in Pennsylvania, but Not for a Military-Grade Assault Rifle (94 comments)

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  •  yesterday you had gun deaths at 30 thousand... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annecros

    today it has magically gone up to 35 thousand. I suppose you think the murder rate is still rising? I don't think that you will ever contribute to the conversation without at least attempting some form of accuracy.

    •  The NRA stopped accurate stat collection by gov... (6+ / 0-)

      and "Gun deaths" can include or exclude some categories (Suicide, accidents or count or exclude some that are indeterminate) and different non-govt. groups and individuals come up with different estimates... So cutting funding for our government from doing oversight and record keeping on just gun related deaths now allows "all guns forever" fans to pooh pooh reasonable statistics from other sources... very convenient.

      And as to conflicting totals... does the difference between 30k and 35k means that if it is "only" 30k there is no problem maybe?... or that if the numbers are not virtually 100% accurate by whoever's seal of approval and is required to count every single gun death to a degree far beyond usually accepted reliable stats for other medical causes of death by accident or intent... then we can discount them entirely... A very NRA way to tackle the issue.

      Confusing, blocking, blinding, distraction and denial work very well for a special interest group to get their way. The same sorts of things used successfully for years by the Tobacco lobby and more recently by the Climate change deniers. The current NRA board and leadership is a bird of that sort of feather.

      Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

      by IreGyre on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 03:27:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup, they sure block the data and then they (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IreGyre, Sharon Wraight

        attack the available data as inaccurate because it does not have good statistical research, which they continue to block to make sure that as little research is conducted as possible.

        If you look at Wiki Answers:

        In 2011, the latest figure available from the Centers for Disease Control,

        ...

        Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011.

        ...

        Previous years:
        2010 31,328 people
        2009 31,177 people
        2007 31,224 people
        2004 29,569 people

        So even with the incomplete data available it is clear that the trend is up and by all accounts 2012 was much worse and by anybody's projections (e.g. Bloomberg) gun deaths are passing automobile deaths.

        In any case, all these numbers don't even include all the injuries by guns that don't result in deaths - according to Bloomberg article, over 200 people go to the ER every day with gun injuries (i.e. over 70,000 per year!)

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 06:24:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The FBI has the number of gun related murders (0+ / 0-)

          at a little over 8500 for 2011 with a DOWNWARD trend since at least 2006. I would think that they would know or at least have accurate crime stats.

          I don't know if reducing the number of guns would reduce the number of suicides. If I were planning to go a gun would not be my first choice but, plenty take that route (about 15k) and I DO count these poor unfortunates as gun related deaths.

          Do you have reliable accident data because I have not looked?

          •  Let's get our facts straight (0+ / 0-)

            The # of deaths by a firearm in 2011 was 31,347.

            http://www.cdc.gov/...

            The rate you are talking about is something else entirely.  You're referring to stats as drawn by the FBI Crime rate, which is not related necessarily to the death rate.

            Why is that important?   Because since they determine by the charged crime, a few other factors trigger in:

            * Suicides are not included
            * Non-charged deaths are not included (this includes accidental or ex-post death)
            * Manslaughter offenses, or downcharges are not included
            * Non-charged crimes are not included.

            There is a significant difference between the # of deaths by and the # of charged crimes involving.  

            And while the charged/sought crime rate has diminished, it doesn't mean that the death rate follows right along.  

            Just so that we are not mixing apples and oranges, and so you can understand why the 2011 delta (suicides: 12,340 is the best stat I can find) + the FBI Charged or Convicted Murder rate do not add up to the total #.

            Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

            by Chris Reeves on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 05:13:17 PM PST

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            •  as far as I have been able to find the suicide... (0+ / 0-)

              rate was more like 15k. I honestly do not know if any current gun legislation or any proposed would keep any of these people from killing themselves with guns since almost any kind of gun, long or short, would do...this would hardly be my prefered method.

              Regardless, yesterday this person said the rate of DEATH was 35 thousand and RISING and that is. even with generous estimates not true and the number of murders is still declining.

              •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Massconfusion

                The raw # is 31,347 for 2011, and it will be higher for 2012, closer to 33,500, though that # isn't finalized or even close yet.

                I think what I'm trying to get at though is that even if you give the suicide # of 15,000, and the number of FBI chased crime at 8,500, that's still a serious difference.

                The reason for that is because of how they are charged (gun deaths that are ruled manslaughters, take part in a multiple, non-charged, accidents, etc.)

                So we're just mixing up multiple statistics.  That's all I'm getting at.

                Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                by Chris Reeves on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:00:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

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