Skip to main content

View Diary: Open thread for night owls: Making the Iranian economy (and Iranians) scream (109 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  IF it has a nuclear weapons program... (9+ / 0-)

    ...which is far from proven, although the Iranian record for secretly engaging in nuclear weapons work in the relatively recent past and lying about it does not give much comfort. The International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors have not found proof that Iran is currently working on creating a bomb, but they haven't been allowed to go everywhere. And the production of more threshold level enriched uranium as well as the building of suspicious facilities that have yet to be inspected is not encouraging on this score.

    But who gets to decide who has nukes or not? Those sanctions, which are, if you believe the links above, making it hard for Iran to obtain medicine for children, were initiated by the nation that has the second largest (and presumably best) arsenal of nuclear weapons on the planet and are backed by four other nuclear-armed nations. There is something just a tad sanctimonious about that. Just as there is about threats from Israel, which reputedly has an arsenal of 200-400 nukes.

    The Iranians believe they have the right to the full nuclear cycle: from raw uranium ore to finished fuel pellets for the array of nuclear powered electricity-generating plants it wants to operate and for medical isotopes. Of course, the problem is that all nuclear operations can be dual use: the power to provide light and heat cities and the power to obliterate them. Only free rein for well-skilled inspectors can keep country from using the tools needed for the former to create the latter.

    Nuclear proliferation is not a good thing, to be sure. And the authoritarian, reactionary, theocratic Iranian regime's oppression of its own people is appalling. But sanctions that make it hard for to obtain medicine for children?

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:28:00 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  It's a matter of weighting (0+ / 0-)

      Similarly, one can also say it's not proven that there are difficulties in obtaining medicines.  IN any event, shipping medicines or removing them from the sanctions list is pretty straightforward.

      THere's something highly unsavory to permitting group of people who are by all accounts prone to violence, including against their own countrymen, access to nuclear weapons because they decide to hold those countrymen hostage.  Remember the government that wants the weapons and the kids needing medicines are two separate groups of people.   A small cadre is holding an entire nation hostage to get what it wants.

      Who's to say that our nasty theocratic regim would give the kids the drugs, since they're already holding those kids hostage?

      It isn't pretty but none of the option are good

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:37:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Prone to violence... that's hilarious! (0+ / 0-)

        I seem to recall that one of our countries has the other surrounded by military bases and is fighting a hot war along the entire eastern border of the other, and has a long history of successfully meddling in the internal political affairs of the other.

        Must be Iran, since they're the violent ones, right?

        "The Democratic Party is not our friend: it is the only party we can negotiate with."

        by 2020adam on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:34:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Might want to talk with residents (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          charliehall2

          of NOrthern Israel about your view.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:51:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  and I love this (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          charliehall2

          Iran should have nuclear weapons because Iraq War.  

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:52:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Pfft (0+ / 0-)

      Paragraph 1) Either they are pulling a Saddam and trying to convince everyone they are more involved with a nuclear weapons program than they actually are. Or they really do have a program. Id go with B as our secret service has been putting a good amount of effort into stopping them. And this times its not Bushies cronies doing the work.

      2)Your Paragraph answers your own question. Who gets to determine who has nuclear weapons? Those who already do...

      this actually is for a good reason. Back in the day when we first developing nukes. This shit was a big deal. "I am become death the destroyer of worlds" shouted a man who's intellectual capacity probably outstrips the collective body of this site.

      It required a great deal of effort to get a nuke. It required a complex society with strong organization and sophisticated educational systems.

      Now we have nations who are just now developing nukes. What else from the 1940s do we consider sophisticated? Does a nation who could just now develop black and white TV's sound like a nation who should have access to nuclear ANYTHING?

      No the nation is a Child of nations and should not be allowed to have sharp objects.

      Build me something that makes me shout that gibberish THAN go for a nuke.  

      3) Horse pucky. Iran has repeatedly turned down the opportunity for  Russians to ship them all the nuclear material they needed for the sole reason of wanting to develop their own nuclear industry so they have access to nukes. There really is no other reason for their behavior.

      4) Gota crack some eggs to make an omelet.  Not an exact analogy as we not targeting the children but sacrifices must be made...

      If you look historically (at least from the numbers Ive seen) and I am stepping well outside of my area of expertise here. Nations tend to give up after a similar % of their population gets lost or economic damage.

      German WWII, Germany WWI,  Japan WWII. The United States South Civil War, France First part of WWII

      It takes a lot of pressure to break a nation.
       

      •  You think Iran is uneducated and ... (6+ / 0-)

        ...unsophisticated? How many Iranians do you know?

        I made no claim that Iran is not intent on developing nuclear weapons or headed down that path. However, your claim that there are only two choices—Iran is either head-faking or actually building a bomb—could be right or could be dismissing a third choice, that it is doing just as it says.

        As for you claim that the answer must be "B" because the U.S. (and perhaps Israel) are bollixing the supposed weapons program has no basis in fact. The uranium-enriching centrifuges have presumably been screwed up by cyber-attacks on two or more occasions. And some of Iran's nuclear scientists have been assassinated or kidnapped. But what evidence is there that the centrifuges or scientists were working on weapons rather than nuclear power systems? There are hints and they are discomfiting. But proof? Not even close.

        "Gotta crack some eggs to make an omelet?" In the context of harming children, that's a foul little cliché.

        Four of your examples of broken nations refer to those with which the United States had been in wars it did not start and hundreds of thousands of fatalities and millions of casualties had been incurred. In the fifth, the breaking of France was accomplished in short order by the Blitzkrieg at the behest of one of history's worst monsters.

        Not the greatest analogies, to say the least. Where exactly is the war that Iran has started? What are the total casualties?

        Pfffft, indeed.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:43:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Third choice: naval power plants... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annieli

          ...the small size of reactors, especially submarines, requires close-to-bomb-grade enrichment. These could give our navy trouble in the Persian Gulf.

          Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

          by JeffW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:45:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Iran fights proxy wars (0+ / 0-)

          most notably in Lebanon, against progressive forces in that country and against Israel. Its client Hezbollah has basically destroyed the only outpost of progressive values in the Arab world, and has rained terror (almost literally) on Israel despite the fact that the UN has stated clearly that Israel holds no part of Lebanon any more, having withdrawn completely over a decade ago.

          Sorry, but the mullahs have blood on their hands, including one entire country.

        •  A lot (0+ / 0-)

          I work with some on a daily basis. They are fine. Their home nation is not.

          Iran IS UNSOPHISTICATED AND UNEDUCATED. The fact that they are a sophisticated nation is a myth at best, willfull ignorance most likely.

          It it is not an option to say they are doing as they just as they say they are.

          Arguing this is like standing in the parking lot 5 days latter yelling something about about there being 3 seconds left on the clock.

          Its not a claim its a bet. Serious people do serious things. Bush was a fucking idiot with little reason to do anything other than stupidity. The people involved here are a bit different than the know nothings that followed orders of blind action.

          The analogies are just fine. Pick your own time period if you would like. Those wars are just the most recent and fresh in peoples minds. Or did you live during the siege of Carthage?

          Iran is funding terrorism and has already killed many American citizens. We are at war.

          There are three options.
          A) We let Iran do what they want they get nukes. The terrorists will gets nukes and we will have nuclear terrorism by their own lack of organization or by direct intention.

          B) We break Iran via sanctions.

          c) We are forced to burn Iran to the ground to prevent them from getting nukes. Hundreds of thousands die if not millions.

          Lets hope for B)

      •  On your third point you fail to mention (0+ / 0-)

        that the US has forced agreements which were reached to solve this matter, through negotiations which didn't involve the US, to fail basically because the US got into a huff because it wasn't involved in them.  

        Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

        by InAntalya on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:56:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  And the point (0+ / 0-)

      About Russia being willing to provide fuel is pretty damning, sadly

      Then again, living in the same neighborhood as Israel and being between two US wars would make me want nukes too

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:12:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, the idea is that sanctions are supposed.. (0+ / 0-)

      ...to hurt, so if you exempt vulnerable people it's not worth doing.  Personally I think the most genuinely targeted and overall fruitful approach would be to subvert Iran's government, but a combination of misplaced legality and less-misplaced takeaways from recent history make that impossible at present.

      You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

      by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:44:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Who cares about the nukes (0+ / 0-)

      I'd rather continue sanctions on Iran to destroy their theocratic regime so they can one day return to western secularism like they had under the shah.

      If it means millions of innocent people suffering because of it, so be it.

      Quite frankly it sickens me that people can care so much about the well being of Iranians and simultaneously hate on people that they hate so much (like Israelis).

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site