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View Diary: Open thread for night owls: Making the Iranian economy (and Iranians) scream (109 comments)

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  •  Um, not that I've heard (0+ / 0-)

    Both the intelligence communities and more portably the IAEA seem to be unsure and switch back and forth about what's going on.  At lest last I heard.   If there were good evidence I can't see why Obama and Cameron would be pushing for more sanctions.  

    Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

    by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:10:15 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  There are links within this link (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MrJayTee

      which will take you to the source quotes http://fcnl.org/...

      Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, head of the Israeli military (IDF):
      "[Iran] is going step by step to the place where it will be able to decide whether to manufacture a nuclear bomb. It hasn't decided to go the extra mile."
      "I don't think [Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei] will want to go the extra mile. I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people."
      4/25/12, The Guardian
      Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak:

      "[Iran has] not yet decided to manufacture atomic weapons."
      04/25/12, The Raw Story
      Director of National [US] Intelligence James Clapper:
      "We continue to assess Iran is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons ... We do not know, however, if Iran will eventually decide to build nuclear weapons.
      01/31/12, Unclassified Statement for the Record on the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
      Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta:
      "Are they trying to develop a nuclear weapon? No. ..."
      2/8/12, Face the Nation

      "I think [Iran is] developing a nuclear capability [but] our intelligence makes clear that they haven't made the decision to develop a nuclear weapon." 2/28/12, Senate Budget Committee<

      There's a whole lot of others. So where is this "they're building a nuke weapon" coming from? The same crowd that keeps lying us into wars, apparently.


      The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

      by Jim P on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:27:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're building a phony debate here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annieli, charliehall2

        There is a consensus between the people quoted above and their alleged contradictors that Iran is seeking to get its nuclear military capacity to the point where making that final decision to develop weapons would be relatively easy.  

        You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

        by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:49:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And the "phony" part of the debate (0+ / 0-)

          is the assertion that they've already decided to do that, when there's no such evidence.

          "John has a shotgun in his home, and that means he can and will go out and shoot up Main Street."

          Israel has 200 nukes. The Saudis, Egypt, and some UAE states have announced their intention to build nuclear power plants which would make them just as capable as Iran is.

          Frankly, given actual history, I'd think the Wahhabi's with a nuke capability would be the US's worry.

          Sorry, I don't buy the war-mongers crap.


          The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

          by Jim P on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:39:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Misreporting of the IAEA's Iran reports. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim P, InAntalya

      Everyone from the Times on down consistently obfuscates the bottom line in these reports, which have consistently held that whatever else they are engaged in, the Iranian Government does not have a nuclear weapons program. They may eventually get to the point where they could start one, and they may then decide to do so, but that simply is not what is happening right now.

      "The Democratic Party is not our friend: it is the only party we can negotiate with."

      by 2020adam on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:39:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Like the infamous "wipe Israel off the map" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        2020adam

        which gets reported as fact to this very moment.

        When the actual idiom used means "a spot on the pages of history" meaning a minor, transient thing.

        The misleading interpretation implies obsession with ending Israel, when the actual statement meant "small potatoes, it'll disappear on its own eventually."

        Of such tricks is propaganda made.


        The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

        by Jim P on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 11:21:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That has always bugged me (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          2020adam

          Plus the focus on ahmedinejad when he's only the President.  

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:56:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It was fact (0+ / 0-)

          as reported on the Iranian government's official web site.

          Stop lying.

          •  It was a horseshit translation as proven (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            2020adam

            by Farsi-speakers such as Juan Cole. http://www.nytimes.com/...

            "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian," remarked Juan Cole, a Middle East specialist at the University of Michigan and critic of American policy who has argued that the Iranian president was misquoted. "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse." Since Iran has not "attacked another country aggressively for over a century," he said in an e-mail exchange, "I smell the whiff of war propaganda."

            Jonathan Steele, a columnist for the left-leaning Guardian newspaper in London, recently laid out the case this way: "The Iranian president was quoting an ancient statement by Iran's first Islamist leader, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, that 'this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,' just as the Shah's regime in Iran had vanished. He was not making a military threat. He was calling for an end to the occupation of Jerusalem at some point in the future. The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon."

            You have no fucking link, you can't possibly provide a fucking link, and you're a fucking liar. Or are you just so fucking stupid and gullible you'll say whatever you're told?

            Or is it you think other people are stupid and gullible?

            Whatever, get lost.


            The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

            by Jim P on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:41:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm right, you are wrong (0+ / 0-)
              If Mr. Steele and Mr. Cole are right, not one word of the quotation — Israel should be wiped off the map — is accurate.

              But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran's most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say "wipe off" or "wipe away" is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.

              http://www.nytimes.com/...

              And here is the original official translation:

              http://web.archive.org/...

              Maybe he was mistranslated, but the source of the mistranslation is his own office. He wanted us to understand that he said "wiped out".

              I'm sick and tired of people like you making excuses for a genocidal wannabe. You would have been quite happy in  the Ministry of Truth in Oceania.

      •  The point is that their current program... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        charliehall2

        ...is designed to get to the point where they can start an explicit weapons program very easily.  As is constantly noted by Iran's relative defenders here and elsewhere, give them some credit for not being stupid: they know how to situate their nuclear program in a way that obfuscates and postpones the weaponization issue to a point where it can't be stopped short of full-scale war, and that's what they are doing.  Personally I think the issue isn't where a country is with nuclear weaponization but what kind of regime they're under--we could give Argentina nukes tomorrow and nobody would worry except maybe Chilean paranoids--so my view is that we're approaching this all wrong.

        You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

        by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:52:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obfuscation works (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          charliehall2

          I notice the quotes are all from February through April, but each of the relevant agencies have concluded that there is a program and that there isn't a program at various times.  (This summer had a shift in the public statements I think).

          Still the fact tht the regime won't accept fuel, which is a cheaper and easier way to get power and medicine is impossible to reconcile with the absence of an aim to weaponize.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:59:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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