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View Diary: How will Obama avoid another debt ceiling fight with the House GOP? (79 comments)

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  •  The blockquote taking 14th off the table (8+ / 0-)

    is from July 2011. I do hope and wish they'd revisit that.

    It was said before we saw the House GOP REALLY IS THAT CRAZY. They really will blow up the US economy to reach their goals.

    And ultimately, that is not playing fair. It's a cycle of hostage taking that must be broken for the good of all administrations going forward.

    Or hey, how about Democrats demand Single Payer Healthcare or no debt ceiling raise? (I know, never going to happen.)

    "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."—Dan Savage

    by Scott Wooledge on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:30:52 AM PST

    •  I hope they revisit it too (3+ / 0-)

      But I don't see any reason to think they will. What has changed about the constitutionality of, say, a trillion dollar coin between 2011 and now?

      I would love to see them change their minds on the 14th Amendment, but that would be a lot less likely than changing their minds on negotiating over the debt ceiling.

      "We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

      by CaptUnderpants on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:33:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  granted, there's no reason (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CaptUnderpants, homo neurotic

        to believe they will. The lines in the sand are only erased on one side of the political spectrum.

        "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."—Dan Savage

        by Scott Wooledge on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:34:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If Obama tries to use the 14th Amendment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Scandalous One

          His presidency will be over, and he knows it.  That is why he/they took it off the table.  They are trying to kill the idea in advance so that the Left stops clamoring for it.

          The GOP would like nothing better than for Obama to create a constitutional crisis (re:  Scandal) early in his second term.  However you read the Amendment, objectively, there is enough legal theory saying that the 14th Amendment does not apply here to give them cover to say the President is directly violating his oath of office to defend the Constitution.

          Armed with that claim, I am 99% sure they would impeach him in the House.  Doubt me?  Look how hard it was to get the GOP House to accept a clear victory in the fiscal cliff deal.  The Tea Party was fully prepared to drive the car right off the bridge when they didn't get 100% of what they wanted.  A much saner House impeached Bill Clinton over a lie under oath.  And, if Obama were impeached, even if acquitted in the Senate, his presidency would, for all intents and purposes, be over.  Like Clinton, he'd still serve out his term, but he'd become the lamest of  ducks instantly.  

          Bill Clinton was a happy warrior of sorts.  He could live with impeachment.  Obama is the great compromiser.  He is also the great bi-partisan.    For Obama, it would be his worst personal nightmare.  And, imagine the spectacle of the nation impeaching the first black president?

          Obama's "line in the sand" about not negotiating on the debt ceiling is a joke,...unless he doesn't plan to negotiate because he is already going to give away the store.  

    •  They reiterated it on Dec. 6, 2012, and (5+ / 0-)

      were even more emphatic:


      Q    Okay.  And secondly, can we quickly revisit the debt ceiling question?  You were asked yesterday about whether the President would invoke executive power and the 14th Amendment.  Can you say that --

      MR. CARNEY:  And Peter, with lightning speed, dug up a quote that I thought would take at least a few hours to find.  (Laughter.)  Let me --

      Q    Have you found another one?  (Laughter.)  

      Q    Can you say that the President has ruled that out as an option, or can you say whether there are discussions or studies underway?

      MR. CARNEY:  Let me give you your answer.  I can say that this administration does not believe that the 14th Amendment gives the President the power to ignore the debt ceiling -- period.

      Were he to go the 14th Amendment route after that, he arguably would be taking steps that he believes to be beyond his Constitutional authority, in violation of his oath of office.  
      •  Exactly. (0+ / 0-)

        That's pretty Shermanesque.

        The right could quote Carney himself as proving Obama is acting as a dictator.

        "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."—Dan Savage

        by Scott Wooledge on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:53:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  That doesn't rule out the $1T coin, though. /nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        —Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:59:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um, yeah, pretty much it does. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Scott Wooledge, VClib

          That  clearly would be seen as a trick to try to avoid the debt ceiling.  

          It's not going to happen.  

          •  $1T coin has nothing to do with the 14th, but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            rather the ability to mint coinage of any value.

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            —Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 11:24:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes, but (3+ / 0-)

              Using that coin to avoid going through Congress for a debt ceiling vote is predicated on a 14th Amendment argument, since by law, Congress must currently approve all increases to the debt ceiling. The only justification for breaking the debt ceiling law is to say it is unconstitutional as per the 14th Amendment.

              "We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

              by CaptUnderpants on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 11:40:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, it's not (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                polecat, AmericanAnt, Scandalous One

                You don't go through the debt ceiling if you get 2 trillion dollars in free money.  The 14th amendment is not implicated, at all.

                The government can raise two money in two ways.  1) Issue debt.  This is subject to the debt ceiling.  2) Print money.  This is subject to Congressional approval, EXCEPT FOR the minting of platinum coins.  The President has clear constitutional authority to do the trillion dollar coin, and the diarist is wrong when he confuses the 14th amendment solution with the platinum coin solution.

                The debt ceiling conflicts with laws Congress has passed to spend that money, anyway.  The President should just ignore it, and say that if Congress didn't want to spend the money, it shouldn't have passed laws saying it should be spent.  Who would even have standing to sue?

                •  One word: Impeachment (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  The House would impeach him just as quickly for minting the $1T coin as they would for trying some 14th Amendment scheme.

                  Let's face it,...they have him in a box on the debt ceiling.  He is going to have to negotiate.  And, after he forced them to allow taxes to increase on somebody, they are goingt o demand a VERY large pound of flesh.  Maybe several pounds...

                  And, for all of you who think Dems "won" just because this deal had no spending cuts, you're going to find out how big a pound of flesh really is.

                  •  Impeach him for what? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Scandalous One

                    What high crime or misdemeanor would it be to use his constitutional, statutory authority to mint two coins, to ensure that the United States pays its bills?  

                    Even if he was impeached, so what?  The House can impeach him, but the trial would happen in the Democratically controlled Senate.  You think a Democratic Senate is going to convict a Democratic President?  

        •  The expected crash in the value of dollar, and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          collapse of the US economy precludes the $1 T tricks.

          In order for a fiat currency to work, the market needs to expect that the government will restrain the growth of money to slightly above real economic growth.  The $1 T coin trick, undermines confidence in the dollar to a massive degree.

          There are an infinite number of bad policies that are permitted by law, the $1 T coin is one of them.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 12:21:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The guy with a kill list (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Scott Wooledge

        Who has authorized the assassination of American citizens, and sends American soldiers to war without a Congressional declaration, is suddenly supposed to worry about the limits of his Constitutional authority?

    •  The problem with the 14th Amendment option is that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grrr, CaptUnderpants

      the House (and perhaps Senate) GOP would then likely bring lawsuits challenging the lawfulness of the administration's decision to invoke said option, and although such a lawsuit should fail, given the current makeup of the U.S. Supreme Court anything is possible.  And if the U.S. Supreme Court found the President's action unlawful, we would then be looking at a Constitutional crisis like we haven't seen in this nation since the Civil War.

      What people on this site don't realize is that like it or not, the Nation elected a GOP House majority, and a result in order for our government to function our President doesn't have a choice but to make compromises.  He simply doesn't have dictatorial powers as some on this site seem to believe.

      We have nothing to fear but fear itself

      by bhouston79 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:54:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  great read (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        pertinent quote:

        If congressional Republicans are threatening to let the nation default on its debts if Obama doesn't agree to their demands, they are violating the Constitution. And the president should call them out for such an outrageous demand.

        mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

        by wewantthetruth on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 10:41:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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