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View Diary: NO! Pandering to the Rape Culture. (264 comments)

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  •  Please don't put words in my mouth. (4+ / 0-)

    I specifically said rape is a horrible crime, one of the worst. Multiple times. The theft remark is merely to point out that crime, even the most mundane crimes, are very difficult to prosecute in an open society.

    I have reached the conclusions that it is simply impossible to have a rational discussion of issues like this on this forum. People are simply too angry about it, and they start lashing out and saying disgusting things like "you think rape is no worse than shoplifting" and then I get angry and just want to tell the person who said to go to hell and it's just no good for anybody.

    So please just stop putting words in my mouth, and if you really think that video is so great, then you go and watch and then tell me how realistic it was. Show me how, if the system really worked that way, large numbers of folks wouldn't get steamrolled by overzealous prosecutors. You can't. Human nature will always get in the way.

    You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

    by Eric Stratton on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:03:35 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Got a link for that video? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Naniboujou, LSophia, misslegalbeagle

      I've never seen it.

      I never said you think rape is no worse than shoplifting.  My comment was about the analogy, which I think is crappy and offensive one for more reasons than just the stark difference in severity.

      Emotion and reason can co-exist.

      •  OK. You win. (0+ / 0-)

        Consider my analogy changed. How about murder? Murder happens frequently, and the conviction rate is not especially good. Does murder work better?

        The video is a new sexual assault awareness video the Army made every soldier watch, I saw it during my last official unit training activity. It was just... words fail. Several of the officers who watched it with me all agreed that the different statistics which were hurled at us by the guy giving the presentation seemed to contradict each other and defied credibility.

        As soon as it was over everyone forgot about it. The enlisted guys then proceeded to slap each other in the ass yelling "good game". Inside joke, you had to be there.

        It's sad because this is a serious issue, and it is clear that people are incapable of seeing it for what it is, even when presented with irrefutable video evidence.

        You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

        by Eric Stratton on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:32:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lonely Texan

          you might want to check your assumptions about murder convictions.

          Queens, 2000

          It's only a few data points, but still.  There is a vast gulf between a 90%-ish conviction rates for accused murderers put on trial and the 30-something percent for rapes.  And keep in mind also that virtually all murders are "reported", while relatively few rapes are; and that most rape victims know exactly who attacked them, while murders rarely have such reliable witnesses.  Both those factors make the rape conviction rate look even worse in comparison.  All told, if you want justice (and don't mind being dead), you're far better off being murdered than raped.

          I'd really love to see that video, get my own opinion on it.  It might be actually over the top, it might just be poorly done, or it could contain truths that people just don't want to hear.  No way for me to know from your description.

          •  Accused being the key word. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hmi

            How many actual murders resulted in charges being filed. Prosecutors don't tend to file charges unless they think they have the perp nailed. And that brings us back to the problem with rape accusations. Juries generally don't question whether or not murder victims consented to being shot, stabbed or beaten to death. That part of it pretty fucking obvious. But it takes more than establishing that sex happened in a rape trial, if you can even manage that much. With the infamous Duke Lacrosse case I doubt the accused ever touched their accuser, the evidence certainly didn't suggest that they did.

            This is all very tiresome, really. People get away with all sorts of crimes for all sorts of reasons. The fact that rape is an especially bad crime doesn't exempt it from this basic fact of life in a liberal democracy. The fact that the act of rape does not often result in a conviction of the person guilty of the crime doesn't tell me that our system is broken. It's doing what it is designed to do, making it hard to deprive someone of their liberty. I guess I just have a problem with the absolute fact that there are untold thousands of innocent people rotting in prisons in the United States, and all anyone seems to want to do is grease the wheels of justice to cram some more in there.

            The young men in Ohio appear to be guilty as sin. I can't imagine there is a lack of evidence, but they'll get chance to defend themselves. But what I see over and over is people saying that "hey, there are hardly any false accusations so let's just convict all the bastards". I find that a disturbing response to these sorts of news stories. Frankly I feel the system is already heavily slanted in favor or the prosecution and against the accused. We don't need to make it easier to throw people in jail.

            You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

            by Eric Stratton on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:55:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No one says that there are no false accusations so (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lonely Texan

              let's convict everyone. That's ridiculous. The point is that false accusations are not the problem that needs solving for rape anymore than they are the problem that needs solving for murder, assault, or theft. Remember the charges against the Duke Lacross players were dropped. I don't believe it ever went to trial. The system worked exactly as it should for them. Was it fun? No, of course not. But it's just as not fun to be falsely accused of murder or any other crime. It's not unique to rape.

              What is unique to rape is that when the low rate of convictions comes up in conversations about rape culture, people (predominantly men) leap to the "problem" of false accusations as the real issue. Also unique to rape is how victims are questioned and disbelieved and blamed even in cases where there's photographic evidence or even confessions. Heck, just look at Alyssa Royse's article on the inaccurately named Good Men Project where she admits her friend raped a woman who was passed out but spends the whole article trying to say it wasn't her friend's fault because the woman had flirted with him. And Royse is a freaking rape victim's advocate!

    •  So if we treated theft like we treat rape... (14+ / 0-)

      Man: Hello, I'd like to report a mugging.

      Officer: A mugging, eh? Where did it take place?

      Man: I was walking by 21st and Dundritch Street and a man pulled out a gun and said, "Give me all your money."

      Officer: And did you?

      Man: Yes, I co-operated.

      Officer: So you willingly gave the man your money without fighting back, calling for help or trying to escape?

      Man: Well, yes, but I was terrified. I thought he was going to kill me!

      Officer: Mmm. But you did co-operate with him. And I've been informed that you're quite a philanthropist, too.

      Man: I give to charity, yes.

      Officer: So you like to give money away. You make a habit of giving money away.

      Man: What does that have to do with this situation?

      Officer: You knowingly walked down Dundritch Street in your suit when everyone knows you like to give away money, and then you didn't fight back. It sounds like you gave money to someone, but now you're having after-donation regret. Tell me, do you really want to ruin his life because of your mistake?

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