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View Diary: The RKBA From the Left - A Matter of Trust (375 comments)

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  •  The reason you can't see or understand my (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, andalusi, PavePusher, ancblu

    position is because you're goal is to focus on the "how" and never the "why".

    The "why" encompasses so many issues such as no living wage jobs, the racist drug war, unfunded resource wars, the continued evisceration of our social safety nets and of course the institutional lawlessness in our government.

    You can't see that the "how" will only maybe save some people, not even half the suicides, leaving the other 16,000+ suicides each year ignored.

    The population of my hometown is 15,000. One Johnson City, New York being wiped off the map each and every year with your "plan".  Why can't we save the people in my hometown?

    That's because you can't and won't see them by focusing on the "how".

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 09:29:43 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  It sounds to me (0+ / 0-)

      -- and please correct me if I'm not following you -- like you're saying that gun violence in our society is a symptom rather than a problem of its own, and that addressing gun violence by restricting guns is only treating a symptom rather than dealing with the real illness.

      You may be right.

      Nonetheless: if a symptom is causing pain, and the symptom is treatable, and you don't know how to cure the illness or you know that curing the illness is beyond your capabilities, you bloody well treat the symptom.

      If you have a "how" that will fix the bigger picture, by all means let's hear it.  Unless and until we have that, don't go around badmouthing painkillers on the grounds that they don't make cancer go away.

      •  Yes and no... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, andalusi, PavePusher, ancblu

        Yes the problem is the violence, the symptom is the tool.

        We do know how to fix the problem, we just won't.

        Education- teach our children peaceful co-existence. Act that way ourselves.

        Fully funding our social safety nets- not demand we pay for-profit corporations for "services" and not care.

        Ending the racist drug war- the biggest contributor to our violent crime rate is criminal on criminal, fueled by the drug war that has generationally destroyed the American family.

        Living wage jobs- need I explain that one?

        Equity under law.

        Your solution has proven ineffective, how do I know? Americans consume 80% of all of the world's total production of pain killers.  Our "standard" of living has decreased and the problems still exist.

        As one poster pointed out the other day. You break your arm and go to the hospital and the Doc gives you morphine and tells you all done!

        Is the broken arm fixed? Nope.

        The British are finally coming to understand this:

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

           The UK violent rate of 2034 per 100,000.
            Australia 1677 per 100,00.
            South Africa 1,609 per 100,000
            Canada 935 per 100,000

            The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents.

        -cut-

            Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

        Why would you suggest we follow their pattern of failure?

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 11:12:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  See above re "beyond capabilities". (0+ / 0-)

          I absolutely agree with you that all those things should be done.  But how on earth does that constitute an argument that gun control shouldn't be?  Especially when most of those other things, as you say, probably won't be?

          If we won't/can't solve the root problem, then it becomes all the more important to treat the symptom.

          Right now I'm just looking to stop some people from dying.

          •  We "can't/won't solve the root problem" (0+ / 0-)

            because nobody truly cares.  

            This breaks my heart:

            Right now I'm just looking to stop some people from dying.
            It sounds racist to me and I'm not calling you that at all, please be clear here.  It took the horrendous murder of 20 well-to-do white suburban children to get people motivated to "stop some people from dying".

            Whom are those "some"?

            African Americans have been burying 1,500 children each and every year.

            http://www.blackyouthproject.com/...

            Young black males die from gun violence at a rate 2.5 times higher than Latino males, and eight times higher than white males. Gun injuries are suffered by black teens at a rate ten times higher than white teens.
            Can you not understand this?  

            Any GC measures that do not focus on the why will never save any one unless they're in suburbia and only for a short time.

            I have a co-worker whom lives on the East Side of Buffalo and he's lost 4 dear friends this past year.  His younger brother was just shot not even a month ago.  What are we going to do for them?!

            They aren't the "some" you wish to save today, that's the part that breaks my heart.  WE DON"T NEED GC CONTROL.  We need to help each other. We need to fix that which our politicians broke, our society.

            Until then, you might lower a few "gun homicides" here and there, but the rot that has taken hold in this nation will continue to fester and undermine the very fabric of what we once believed in as a party, the people.

            Not just "some" but all of us.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 11:09:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You assume I haven't been motivated (0+ / 0-)

              all along.

              Not a safe assumption at all, sir.

              •  Insulting me will not advance the (0+ / 0-)

                conversation.  I am a woman, a transgendered woman, calling me SIR, is an intentional personal insult.

                That said, what assumptions have I made? You said you want to save "some" people.

                We have a real opportunity to save millions and you'd have us waste any and all political capital on gun control?

                GC that will not stop the racist drug war.
                GC that will not stop the evisceration of our social safety nets.
                GC that will not stop black on black crime.
                GC that will not stop 16,000+ Americans killing themselves.
                GC that will not stop 600,000+ Americans trying to kill themselves, each and every year.
                GC that will not stop the decay and despair in this nation that leads to more violence and crimes.

                So, when you tell me you wish to help "some" people in advancing your GC argument here, your motivations ring hollow to me, as one of those people you're going to ignore in the process.

                What is my hometown going to get out of this deal?
                What is my current hometown of Buffalo going to get?
                What is my co-worker going to get?
                What am I going to get?

                More violence, more suicide and more killings.

                That isn't a solution.  

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:51:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Two things (0+ / 0-)

                  1) Oh dear.  I'm very sorry about the "sir" mistake -- I did not know your gender and I mistakenly conflated you with a commenter in a different thread.  I apologize.

                  2) What "real opportunity to save millions" are you talking about?  This isn't intended as disparagement; I seriously want to know.

                  As I said above, if you have a "how" that will fix the bigger picture and that could practically be implemented, odds are good that I'm in favor of it -- probably in addition to gun control, but if it seems powerful enough, maybe instead of.

                  •  EDUCATION. (0+ / 0-)

                    Teach our children peaceful co-existance AND act that way as a society and a nation.

                    Create the conditions whereby people will have a stake in our society, such as living wage jobs, fully funded health care not "for profit" health insurance.

                    END NAFTA & GATT, dissolve our memberships in the WTO AND the IMF.

                    ENDING the failed drug war. Release all non-violent drug "offenders", retrain them.  Give them a stake in our society as free men and women.  Let us all rebuild the destruction brought by decades of "Republicanism" and "Capitalism".  "Capitalism" that is defined as "dog eat dog for us poor people, and Socialism for the most wealthy.  REVERSE this mentality.

                    These things won't divide us, they won't take years of court cases to settle AND the won't take an act of God to make them happen.

                    Just a leader willing to do the right thing for all of us.

                    Then let's talk gun control.  Let's see if Americans will need or want a firearm then.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:43:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  All of those are very good things. (0+ / 0-)

                      Or most of them seem to be.  I withhold judgment regarding NAFTA, GATT, the WTO and the IMF on the grounds that I don't know enough about them.  The rest of those things should absolutely be done.

                      However.

                      Educating our children in peaceful coexistence, while possibly the most important and the most powerful of your suggestions, is inevitably going to be slow.  Decades' worth of it, before any observable results.  It will do nothing for (or about) our country's adults who have already been through the educational system -- and those adults will still be around.

                      And as for "act that way as a society" ... that's a goal, not a plan.

                      •  Yes, you are correct, my goal is the end results. (0+ / 0-)

                        The plan I offer will allow many to slip through the cracks, that's inevitable will any plan of action, we must accept this reality, all of us.

                        We didn't get here overnight, it will take time, there's no denying that, it must take time.  We have to stop with the mentality of instantaneous gratification.  This has no place in our society.  It's what caused me to charge stuff up in the 80's beyond my means to repay because, "I wanted in now".  That's truly unrealistic and untenable, in the long run.

                        If I had known then what I know today, my world would truly be different.

                        The benefit to my plan, we will help millions of Americans for generations to come. We will slow down and eventually stop the social decay that we are witnessing.  Those needing help will actually get it.  Those predisposed to violence will be helped.  Now all we're gonna do is take the tool used from them, that won't stop or fix the problem, really.

                        A person so disposed to killing could do more damage with a gallon of gasoline and matches than any firearm could.  

                        A person so disposed to violence can use a 4,000 pound car and drive it straight through a crowded school playground at recess.

                        A person so disposed will find the means.

                        Then where are we? Back to square one.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:23:49 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So I still come back to the same question ... (0+ / 0-)

                          ... why not implement your plan AND, simultaneously, implement gun restriction laws?  So as to at least make it harder, in the meantime, for those disposed to violence to kill anyone?

                          •  If you haven't been reading, GC will destroy our (0+ / 0-)

                            party AND put us out of power for generations.

                            Then what do we get done without the power?  If GC wasn't such a destructive issue, I'd probably support it, some of it anyways.  

                            That's not the reality we exist in, sadly.  And what's been proposed will not stop those disposed to violence from finding other means.  

                            So we lose power and the Republicans destroy all that we built from FDR on.

                            I'd rather not move the goal posts any further back into Republicanism.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:35:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ah, I think I see your point now. (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't agree that pushing for gun control will necessarily destroy Democrat power, depending on how it's done -- but I agree that it's a danger and one to be taken very seriously.

                            And yes, if pushing for gun control were to have the effect you describe, that would solve nothing at all -- and it would leave us unable to solve anything else either.

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