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View Diary: Atomic scientists keep 'Doomsday Clock' at 5 minutes to midnight because of global warming (61 comments)

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  •  all due respect (1+ / 0-)
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    Don midwest

    that last sentence is wrong. I don't think we should delay but that's not the same thing as recognizing that with the dysfunctional level of government we have that we won't have delay.

    There are too many entrenched interests and money brokers (coal being the worst imo) that not only are resitting change on principle but have a vested interest in resisting change.

    The challenge is working though this and for that, that might take time

    •  How much time do you think we... (5+ / 0-)

      ...have? We've already wasted the 25 years since Jim Hansen first spoke up on the issue on the floor of Congress. Do you think we have another 25?

      Delay is denial. Yes, it will take time to make the changes. The delay is in getting the ball rolling.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 08:51:58 PM PST

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      •  I think it is not as simple as that (1+ / 0-)
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        I think that in a perfect world Carter's then ambitious ideas would have been followed though and the US would be leading the world in not only technological innovation but implementation of solar and wind

        Alas  that didn't happen but vilifying everyone simply because they are constrained by our choice of government is not the answer. You're not helping by insulting the very people that either we need to enact change or already are trying to enact change.

        As to what I think, climate change is complicated. No one exactly knows what will happen next for sure. That said we engineered this disaster in the making we likely can fix it. But above all we should be trying to make allies, make a persuasive argument for our stance. Not berating them, at least that's how I see it


        •  I worked at the Solar Energy Research Institute... (4+ / 0-)

          ...from 1978-81 until Ronald Reagan pulled the plug on most of its projects.

          Since then, we've had a constant, vicious, sneering attack from right-wingers and fossil-fuel corporations on scientists and any politicians willing to say we need to go heavy on conservation and clean energy and, since the late '80s, reduction of greenhouse gases. These forces have smeared scientists, lied about them, maintained subsidies for mature industries, killed people with their pollution, bought puppets in Congress and state legislatures to stop movement in a direction that could make a difference.

          These people are not my allies, and I will vilify them six ways to Sunday except for any who change their approach. Insults? You haven't begun to hear my insults for them yet. They fucked us with their lies and they keep fucking us.

          As for officials and others who agree that climate change is happening, that humans are causing it, and that something must be done, but argue simultaneously that there are too many obstacles, I will repeat what I have already said many times: Delay is denial.

          You—the generic you—either think it's happening and that it will be lethal for millions, if not more, human beings and other mammals, amphibians, birds and reptiles, and could well bring down civilization, or you don't. If you do, you stop pussyfooting around and push hard for change.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 09:40:52 PM PST

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          •  I think on the whole (0+ / 0-)

            we're speaking past each other more then anything.

            I wasn't speaking about those people, those people imo are generally beyond help and yes I have nothing much to say to them either. I was speaking about everyone else.

            •  I don't think we are speaking past each other... (4+ / 0-)

              ...I simply disagree with your take on "everybody else." People who know global warming is happening and will be disastrous and are in a position to work for change and yet do not do so are, in effect, denialists until they stop making excuses for delaying.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 15, 2013 at 10:37:54 PM PST

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              •  I like your clear thinking. And your wide (0+ / 0-)


                With your solid body of work here at Daily Kos,
                you're one of the best journalists I've ever read,
                and I had a subscription to Newsweek
                as a teenager,
                in the sixties and early seventies.

                Magazine and newspaper articles are my source
                of self education,
                and yours,
                are among the best I've ever read.

                And you're one of the best philosophers I've ever heard of.

                Your sig line
                is better than most things any philosopher
                has ever said.

                My only frustration
                is that I can see,
                just like the Rain Man said,
                "I see it",
                I can see
                that contraception,
                one child for each five families,
                for two generations,
                that kind of contraception,
                surgical sterilization,
                that is the most urgent task,
                the only way
                to turn this disaster around.

                The very wealthy
                will buy fancy organic farms and ranches,
                enough to feed them and their private jet mechanics
                and other needed people,
                and they will let the working class starve and die.

                I hope I'm wrong.

                Global climate change
                makes it all worse,
                but fewer humans
                on the planet
                would make everything
                so much easier to fix.

                Thanks for reading.

                •  I think it is down six billion by 2100. (0+ / 0-)

                  And I really, really don't appreciate the space you take up with your comments. It's almost as bad as using all caps. Makes them harder to read and understand, in addition to more time consuming.

                  Your comments are worthwhile additions, please reconsider the spacing.

                  "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                  by Ginny in CO on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 02:32:48 AM PST

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              •  true, I don't agree with such a broad brush (0+ / 0-)

                approach. On the whole I believe in a dogged but polite approach. I don't think insulting anyone you do not think is working fast enough or 'truly enough' is productive or worthwhile.

                Perhaps that's just a difference of opinion. If so I wish you luck in your approach but I would be lying if I said I think it will work.

        •  All I can say duhban - (3+ / 0-)

          is your comments and opinions don't indicate a very good grasp of the situation. The scientific data collected is a lot clearer than you seem to understand. Your comments sound like classic lip service just to be on the right side, without getting into the really dirty, ugly work.

          My ex is an environmental engineer who I still have great conversations with on this issue. Growing up with a deep love of the outdoors, he chose the field in order to help stop the environmental destruction of nature. It's been a losing battle from the start.

          I have long taught slow approaches to change for my patients, and practiced constructive, respectful teamwork for bringing about change. Neither. will. work. for. this. situation. The more we delay, the more unimaginable the human suffering, as well as many other species, and the more irreversible damage to the planet.

          At some point, getting through to those in denial or panic will verbally approach slapping them in the face. Like John Wayne used to do when some fool was putting a whole bunch of folks in an old west situation at risk to be killed by Indians or outlaws. As a nurse I've seen verbal stuff work in critical situations to get people to function (or get out of the way). Whatever breaks the freeze.

          It will certainly take a combination of approaches to get us seriously moving on what will make a difference. Until we change course...

          "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

          by Ginny in CO on Wed Jan 16, 2013 at 03:21:15 AM PST

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          •  all I can say (0+ / 0-)

            is that I don't think you understand my point.

            I totally agree that climate change is real and is happening. I however don't agree with alienating people though simply because of matters out of their control.

            Under Meteor Blade's definition anyone even those that agree with climate change but are stymied by a dysfunctional congress are apparently deniers.

            I also don't think a slap in the face metaphorically or otherwise is the best approach. But then I was raised with the idea that it's always more preferable to be nice then not.

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