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  •  Cite Some Examples Of Nonracist Fascism nt (4+ / 0-)

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:01:09 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  sure . . . (1+ / 0-)
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      psnyder

      in the Middle East Ba'ath would be one example.  Pinochet in Chile another.  There are a number of States in SE Asia that exhibit all the economic and political indicators without any overtly "racist" component.  And then there's the one closest to home . . .

      Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

      by Deward Hastings on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:20:02 PM PDT

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      •  asdf (4+ / 0-)

        Saddam not a racist? Ask the marsh Arabs about that!

        Regards the rest, I'd probably include Pinochet as a Fascist for other reasons.  

        Everyone has a slightly different definition of Fascism, and there is no single definitive checklist that is just right.  Again, it's always possible to say that almost nobody is a  fascist depending on how you slice it.  Here a review of the definitions.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        But as Fascism if reemerging now in Greece and England (see the other diary that's up) it is largely driven by racism and xenophobia.  they are considerate enough to identify themselves as Fascists, which takes the guesswork out of it.

        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

        by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:14:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a stretch (0+ / 0-)

          to make Saddam (an Arab) into a "racist" because of the marsh . . . Arabs.  His government included representatives of all the major "races" and religions in Iraq (Kurds and Christians in particular), although he may have developed some feelings about "Persians" as a result of the Iran war.  Or maybe he had them before . . . but "anti-Persianism" does not seem to have been a motivator of either his political or economic positions.

          There are some pretty obviously racist fascists in the Middle East, but it's a stretch to include Saddam (or Assad, for that matter) among them.

          Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

          by Deward Hastings on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:47:45 PM PDT

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          •  It's A Stretch To Include Non-European Cultures (0+ / 0-)

            Most  regimes with all the trapping of Fascism for instance have been officially Christian.  We can compare Fascist nations to cultures that never heard of Fascism, and find similarities, but that doesn't seem to "prove" much one way or the other.

            On the other hand, if some nation had started off with Fascist philosophy, gone off in a different direction and said this is "the real Fascism," it would be more meaningful difference.

             

            There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

            by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 09:17:03 PM PDT

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            •  that's an interesting twist . . . (0+ / 0-)

              as it essentially defines fascism as "European", rather than on ideology and functional characteristics.  Does it mean that you would not use the "fascist" label on Imperial Japan?  Or the pre-eminent fascist State of the 21st Century, which is clearly not Christian?

              If your definition of fascism is going to devolve simply to "looks like Nazi Germany" it's not going to be all that useful.

              Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

              by Deward Hastings on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:10:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Comparing Versus Real Correlation Or Causation (1+ / 0-)
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                AoT

                You can compare anything, but the question of whether similarities are meaningful is usually not similar.

                Japan did not become "Fascist" by adapting Fascist theories or philosophy.  It's feudal culture managed to avoid conflicting with the Nazi industrialized feudalism. It's useful to compare them but not very helpful to call Japan "Fascist" since it implies all sort of things.

                At some point all authoritarian societies start looking similar, and that increases as they get further away from their unique revolutionary origins.  This lets wingnuts say communism and Nazism are the same things, and when everything is "Nazism," then nothing is Nazism.

                There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:51:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sorry for many typos, bed time nt (0+ / 0-)

                  There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                  by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:56:10 PM PDT

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                •  the difference between (0+ / 0-)

                  feudal and fascist is simply the difference between agrarian and industrial.  In Japan the transition for the most part came quickly and late.  If you don't want to call the end result "fascist" then you're back to "it's not fascist if it's not Nazi Germany" . . . which as a definition is both useless and wrong.  There were other fascist States.

                  There still are.

                  Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                  by Deward Hastings on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:04:21 PM PDT

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                  •  Flailing Around + Deliberate Silliness (0+ / 0-)
                    If you don't want to call the end result "fascist" then you're back to "it's not fascist if it's not Nazi Germany
                    Which contradicts the whole diary doesn't it? Because it's about people who want to make the definition too narrow or too broad to the point of being meaningless.

                    Every fascism diary  has to have someone playing your role of obfuscating about the definition of Fascism.  And in this case, the Fascism diary is about people who obfuscate on the definition of Fascism, which is why it's a meta diary.

                    But if you think you are making an actual point, you should by all means go write a diary of your own.

                    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                    by bernardpliers on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:22:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK, how about (1+ / 0-)
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                      bernardpliers

                      Apartheid South Africa?  I'd say it might fit the definition, with a largely agrarian society with some extractive and industrializing sectors thrown in.  Authoritarian, but many characteristics of fascism.

                      I'm part of the "bedwetting bunch of website Democrat base people (DKos)." - Rush Limbaugh, 10/16/2012 Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

                      by tom 47 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:36:55 PM PDT

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                      •  Really Interesting Wikipedia Page (0+ / 0-)

                        Various Fascist movements by country and their philosophical roots

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                        Overwhelmingly, they are varieties of Nazism.

                        Yes, South Africa had a Nazi movement in the 30's and 40's.  Personally I don't know enough about their society to comment on whether it was Fascist, although I really really would like to say yes.  

                        Of course, Fascism was largely about protecting the social class structure from Communist "class struggle."  In fact, that was one of the main selling points of Nazism, which reduced non-Aryans to literal slaves.  That sure doesn't conflict with the apartheid.

                        In biology, there is the concept of "convergent evolution."  A dolphin looks like a fish, but everyone except maybe Homer Simpson knows it is not a fish.

                        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                        by bernardpliers on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:56:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Interesting list (0+ / 0-)

                          And Alfredo Stroessner's Partido Colorado in Paraguay  doesn't even get a mention? 39 years or so in power, second only to Kim Jong-Il or Ferdinand Marcos in the Phillipines? And how about Piochet in Chile?

                          Maybe those are more straight-ahead garden variety dictatorships, not strictly fascist? I guess it depends on how many "points" they have on the list of characteristics, or something.

                          Just asking- - I know it's not your list.

                          I'm part of the "bedwetting bunch of website Democrat base people (DKos)." - Rush Limbaugh, 10/16/2012 Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

                          by tom 47 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 12:11:31 AM PDT

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                          •  No Regime Scores 100 On Eco's List (0+ / 0-)

                            ...and he discusses that in his essay.  

                            For instance, does America have a "Cult Of Heroic Death?"  No but increasingly we hear the frustrated Tea Party types talk about going out heroically in a hail of bullets.

                            There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                            by bernardpliers on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:39:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Xenophobia is basic to all fascist movements (3+ / 0-)
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      bernardpliers, mollyd, Dirtandiron
      •  that's perhaps (2+ / 0-)
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        bernardpliers, Onomastic

        a bit of an exaggeration.  It is certainly present in many, but I think you lose too much if you define too narrow . . .

        Robert Paxton defines fascism as:

        “a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”
        Paxton wrote his definition clearly intending to describe the Nazi movement in Germany in the 30’s (which is, after all, his scholarly area of expertise).  He avoided "racism" in his definition, although I suppose one might claim it's implied by the "purity" attrubute.  I wouldn't agree.  I have no idea whether (or not) he simultaneously realized how perfectly he described other, more contemporary, fascist states.

        My own understanding of it is a bit broader, although I don't disagree that most, if not all, of the characteristics Paxton enumerates are commonly present.  What I've suggested is

        “There is nothing new about Fascism (it barely differs from Feudalism) . . . the rich have always felt "entitled" to rule, and have expressed that entitlement with a lesser or greater (usually greater) degree of authoritarianism.  And there is nothing new about racism . . . probably since the dawn of time some tribes have felt themselves superior to, and more "entitled" than, well, everyone else.  And there was nothing new about Nazism . . . it is simply another unhappy convergence of those two "entitlements" that had happened before and, unfortunately, has happened since as well.”
        To that I would add exaggerated nationalism (which might converge with your "xenophobia" concept) and militarism . . . the "warrior ethic" and "loyalty and service to country" are common if not universal themes in fascist states, and probably should be included as defining characteristics of fascist states, if not fascism (the ideology) itself.

         

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:26:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Paxton Seems Very Readable (1+ / 0-)
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          Onomastic

          I have not gotten to him yet.

          But yeah, the rural parties that the Nazis absorbed in the 1920s were notoriously racist. And Mein Kampf is loaded with nasty racism, and that was 1927.  

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:42:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not all xenophobes are fascists. (1+ / 0-)
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            bernardpliers

            I was talking about historical fascism.
            But all xenophobes bear watching.

            •  But You Can Bet They Know A Few (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, devis1

              As the Orcinus blog often pointed out, Jonah Goldberg had to tie himself in knots to avoid mentioning real Fascists in the United States, from the German American Bund in the 1930s to the present.

              It would be possible to debate whether the KKK is actually "Fascist," but they do march with NeoNazis. So, maybe not "Fascist" per se, there's a big overlap in their beliefs and even group affiliation.

              Whenever some goober on the WaPo comments section would say "Nazis were  liberals" I would say "Well there are plenty of real Nazis around, and I'd be happy to drive you around to find some so you can explain to them that they are "liberals," just as long as I can record the video of when they curbstomp you."

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:05:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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