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  •  Thanks for the reply, the framing and perspective (9+ / 0-)

    is where we seem to diverge.

    I posit that inner city crime would plummet if we stopped the school to prison pipeline, ended the racist drug war, created living wage jobs by ending unfunded resource wars then our children in inner cities could grow up to become doctors.  The drug war has generationally destroyed the African American family.  This destruction was caused by policies out of DC.

    When we look at the % change, it reveals this:

    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/...
     From 1980 to 2009, the change is 78% higher.
    Looking at Race, the numbers speak for themselves:
    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/...

    "The most alarming news lurking within these figures is that there are now 2.7 million minor children (under age 18) with a parent behind bars. (See Figure 9.) Put more starkly, 1 in every 28 children in the United States — more than 3.6 percent — now has a parent in jail or prison. Just 25 years ago, the figure was only 1 in 125.
    "For black children, incarceration is an especially common family circumstance. More than 1 in 9 black children has a parent in prison or jail, a rate that has more than quadrupled in the past 25 years. (See Figure 10.)
    "Because far more men than women are behind bars, most children with an incarcerated parent are missing their father.37 For example, more than 10 percent of African American children have an incarcerated father, and 1 percent have an incarcerated mother."

    The gun didn't do this. Banning or restricting the gun won't fix it.

    So, we must politely disagree here.  

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 09:29:37 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I just don't see how you can deny (4+ / 0-)

      that guns are a huge part of the problem. The flood of guns into poor, urban communities increases the rate of crime. It increases the lethality of assaults, and the level of violence children are exposed to from a very young age. The fear this creates is one of the major reasons that young people in these communities join gangs-they offer a degree of protection. Boys who don't have fathers are also more susceptible to be "groomed" by gang leaders, because the gang fills a void that has been created by those absent fathers.

      There is no way to substantially cut down the incarceration rate without doing something about guns. Ending the war on drugs is a good start, but most inner city crime isn't related to drugs. We absolutely need to provide more opportunities and living wage jobs in these communities-but it is very difficult, if not impossible, to sustain a prosperous economy in a community plagued by violence.

      There is only one model that has been proven effective at substantially reducing inner city violence-it is called "Operation Ceasefire". It combines strong, and consistent deterrents against gun possession and violent gang activity with community-based intervention strategies, outreach and support, and economic opportunities. It works.  This documentary shows what it looks like in action. Also see this article.

      I don't see how anyone can argue with strategies that have been proven effective and actually save lives. I also don't understand why we, as progressives, aren't screaming about this from the rooftops. It should be at the forefront of ANY national discussion of gun violence.

      You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

      by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 01:35:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Take a step back from your very valid points (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, 43north, VectorScalar

        and tell me how did those young boys become fatherless?

        The Racist Drug War.

        Why are there gangs garnering power, weapons and cash?

        The Racist Drug War.

        What motivates these young kids into drugs?

        Lack of living wage jobs.

        Al Capone almost brought this nation to its knees, how'd he do that again?

        The other model that proved effective, Ending Prohibition.

        How do we restore the families our government destroyed?  Repeal and modify drug laws, release all non-violent drug offenders.  Educate and retrain them, show them how to live their lives in peace and prosperity.

        Pay them like we do football players to help rebuild our inner cities, infrastructure and give them a reason to be part of this society again, as free men, not criminals.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 03:41:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not really... (5+ / 0-)

          You should read the article I linked to. Or spend time talking to the people who this affects directly. Drugs are an issue, but not to the extent you seem to think.

          "Another story is that it's all about drugs," Kennedy says, "and that's not true either." While most gang members do participate in the drug trade, the popular image of Crips and Bloods battling for crack-dealing turf is as outdated as the movie Colors. Nor, in Kennedy's view, is gang violence a sickness somehow endemic to ghetto culture—"because almost everybody in these neighborhoods doesn't participate. Hardly anybody goes this way." In Boston, Kennedy found that even within the most gang-dominated neighborhoods, fewer than 5 percent of young men were gang members. A 2004 outburst of gang killings in San Francisco produced a similar finding: Only about 100 young men in the entire city were thought to be truly dangerous, and a couple dozen were thought to have done most of the killing. "But because almost everybody deals with one or another of those fictions," Kennedy says, "it's very hard to engage with what's really going on."
          What's really going on, in Kennedy's view, is small groups of young men encouraging each other to violence. "It's about respect," he says. "It's about boy-girl stuff, it's Hatfield and McCoy." This, too, is nearly uni-versal among people on the front lines, from Sherrills to T. Rodgers to former police captain Rick Bruce in San Francisco's notorious Hunters Point neighborhood: Gang killings are not about huge, hierarchical cri-minal organizations struggling for control of drug-dealing turf. They're about beefs. They're about patterned webs of vendettas and retaliations. Somebody looks at somebody wrong, or two guys want the same girl, and it's on. In San Francisco, for example, nearly 20 tit-for-tat homicides over the past decade have been traced back to a single car auction, after which a gangster killed a man who outbid him for a vehicle. "You have to keep in mind," says T. Rodgers, "that between the ages of 11 and 17 they're warriors untried. From 17 to 21, it's 'What's your claim to fame? I can impregnate every girl on the block. Or I can knock you out with a right or a left.'" It's what University of California-Irvine criminologist George Tita calls "expressive violence rather than instrumental violence." Tita says that even among gangs that are involved in the drug trade—and most are, in some way or other—the leaders will gladly negotiate trade agreements with one another even as their foot soldiers murder each other over petty slights, because strict street codes dictate a violent response to nearly any perceived insult and every individual is terrified of falling short of those codes. But because group psychology, among a relatively small number of young men, is the clear engine of an enormous percentage of urban violence, it's a perfect point of intervention.
          Again, this is coming from someone who has dedicated his entire career to studying urban violence, and the architect of the ONLY crime intervention program that has actually produced results.

          You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

          by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 04:32:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think there's a link (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SwedishJewfish, gerrilea

            The destruction of the family unit, does subject young people to influences - "foster parenting" - by less than socially accepted role models.

            I'm not in-favor of easy access to firearms by youth, at all.
            Training, adult supervision, and an understanding that there's no walking away from pulling a trigger.

            In Bridgeport, I saw the destruction of low wage jobs, held by two parents, raising their families.  Bridgeport became a poster child for what went wrong in formerly industrialized small cities.
            The jobs left, as it was cheaper to either fold up the tent and move production offshore, or just plain quit - as the profit margins were too low for investment in modernization to comply with OSHA and EPA regulations.
            No jobs, retail flight, urban decay, failing schools, violent neighborhoods and projects.  Drugs were the new industry.

            I didn't click your links, as I'm familiar with Operation Ceasefire.  
            Structure, incentive, education, hope, a future.
            Much as we've discussed in our other comments here today.
            It comes to ending the perceived NEED for a gun.
            Making them less available to the worst actors, by improving and enforcing the NICS background check will twist the handle on the supply faucet.
            I'm heartened by your discourse, that PROGRAMS such as Operation Ceasefire, and not "meaningful legislation" is of greatest good.

            If Dianne Feinstein wants to do something substantial?
            Fix the mental health care system.
            Get the NRA to sign-onto single-payer mental health coverage.  Relax the magazine capacity ban in return for passage of the single-payer mental health care and reporting provisions.
            Max Baucus will shit, reason-enough right there.

            Fix the data reporting, and the "if we get around to it" aspect of States filing reports to the NICS database.

            Enact a doubling of the excise taxes on sales of guns and ammunition, and fund programs such as Operation Ceasefire.

            End the War on Drugs, and do as Portugal.  
            Treat it as an addiction, not a income stream benefitting the for-profit prison system.

            Ban rifle magazines over 30 rounds, handgun magazines over 15 rounds.  It's low hanging fruit.  1/100th of a percent of gun owners will insist that's just wrong.
            As stated above, make it a quid pro quo with the NRA.

            Another benefit:
            It's not going to fund the gunmakers, when the new law requires gun owners to purchase 100,000 five and ten-round magazines @ $20-$60 each, for bits of metal and plastic.
            Gun magazines are like floor mats for your new car. 90% pure profit for the auto company and dealership.

            Change the provisions of the GCA '68 from "felons" to "persons convicted of a crime of violence".
            I'm not worried about the accountant, pot grower, nor tax cheat.

            I am worried about the person who's evaded felony conviction, but has misdemeanor convictions for crimes of violence.  We've done it for misdemeanor crimes of Domestic Violence, and it's working.

            Look for the patterns, leading to violence and homicide.  Prohibit firearms possession by those people inclined to put their hands on others, and we'll do a better job of protecting our citizens.

            •  Wow, I finally understand your position more (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              43north

              than I ever have.  This makes sense and would do the most to help us all move beyond the destruction we created.

              Thank you.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 10:37:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  thank SwedishJewfish for prying it out (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, Otteray Scribe

                Tip O'Neill would be the first to make a deal which accomplished an "impossible" goal.
                I believe we can accomplish something of real value in single-payer mental health care coverage, protect many suicidal people already under diagnosis from obtaining firearms at retailers, and lessen the chances of another mass shooting by a person with known psychosis.
                The NRA has spendable political capital, and would get a quid pro quo in return.

                I'd hold the line on comprehensive use of the NICS, and bans on extended capacity magazines.

                Get those two things done, and we're further down the road than ever-before possible.

                Double the gun and ammo taxes, and fund alternative to gangs outreach.  I hadn't thought of that until SwedishJewfish mentioned it.  It works better than sending a 16 year old to adult prison, so run with it.

                I truly believe the "felons" in the GCA '68 was all about taking guns from persons of color, and had everything to do with the NOI, and BPP.
                Doctor King was not shot with a military rifle, nor a "saturday night special".  But the GCA '68 was sold to the black community as necessary.  Do it for Medgar Evers, for Martin Luther King Jr..  Call your Congressman.

                Since '68 we've taken guns from many "felons" who have never committed a violent act.  
                While leaving those who do violence, and have the means and resources to avoid felony conviction, in-possession of firearms.
                That's nuts.

                That too should change, but I don't see it happening, as like the war on drugs, there are vested interests at work, keeping the status, quo.

                •  The true puppet masters were recently revealed (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  43north

                  for us, wasn't it?

                  HSBC.

                  We don't need a tax increase on end user products, hell seize their assets under current drug forfeiture laws and spread the wealth.

                  They have over $2.3 Trillion in assets and make $38 billion a year.

                  I really am all about Equity Under Law, you know.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 11:44:43 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, media portrayal of violence as the best and (0+ / 0-)

            only solution to garner respect.  

            MTV and the violent laden lyrics.  In the debate of "nature v. nurture", nurture wins out every time.  Pavlov's dogs and I don't mean that to be derogatory.  We are what we see.  Children emulate what they see.

            I know this as a recovered alcoholic and the enabler syndrome.  Women seek out, unknowingly, men or relationships that are abusive because that's what life is supposed to be and vice-versa (not being sexist here) whom are raised in an alcoholic environment.

            Young men and women are being taught violence is cool and standard operating procedure for life in these United States.    

            Surprisingly for me, I've had this exact conversation with co-workers whom see this as well.  I rarely watch TV any more or even listen to the radio.  Older co-workers whom work with the younger "kids" being forced to listen to music talking about raping the girl, kill the bastard, etc etc.  

            The first step has to be to restore the family.  How do we get there? End the failed drug war.  Let the families heal and coalesce.  Let the family be the bridge and solution.  Make policies that enable this to occur.  Teach peace to our children in school.  Act and live that way.

            Violence is so easy.  The escalation of violence even easier.  It doesn't take a moments thought.  It doesn't take thought at all.  Teach our children to think again, not become "the worker of tomorrow", as is the current education model.  

            Until then we'll be chasing our tails.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 11:37:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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