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  •  I wish getting rid of all the guns (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gerrilea, notrouble

    was the solution. I also endorse getting rid of tools that can be utilized in suicide and getting them away from anyone who is at risk.

    But, getting rid of the guns doesn't solve the problem, sadly. And suicide by other methods is of no benefit to society.

    Please take a moment to click through this link. It is a really good read.

    Here's your Harvard study:

    F. Geographic Comparisons: Gun Ownership and Suicide Rates
    The mantra more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal
    less death is also used to argue that “limiting access to firearms
    could prevent many suicides.”141 Once again, this assertion is directly contradicted by the studies of 36 and 21 nations (respectively)
    which find no statistical relationship. Overall suicide rates
    were no worse in nations with many firearms than in those where
    firearms were far less widespread.142
    Consider the data about European nations in Tables 5 and 6.
    Sweden, with over twice as much gun ownership as neighboring
    Germany and a third more gun suicide, nevertheless has the lower
    overall suicide rate. Greece has nearly three times more gun ownership
    than the Czech Republic and somewhat more gun suicide,
    yet the overall Czech suicide rate is over 175% higher than the
    Greek rate. Spain has over 12 times more gun ownership than Poland,
    yet the latter’s overall suicide rate is more than double the
    former’s. Tragically, Finland has over 14 times more gun ownership
    than neighboring Estonia, and a great deal more gun‐related
    suicide. Estonia, however, turns out to have a much higher suicide
    rate than Finland overall.
    There is simply no relationship evident between the extent of
    suicide and the extent of gun ownership. People do not commit
    suicide because they have guns available. In the absence of firearms,
    people who are inclined to commit suicide kill themselves
    some other way.143 Two examples seem as pertinent as they are
    poignant. The first concerns the 1980s increase in suicide among
    young American males, an increase that, although relatively modest,
    inspired perfervid denunciations of gun ownership.144 What
    these denunciations failed to mention was that suicide of teenagers
    and young adults was increasing throughout the entire industrialized
    world, regardless of gun availability, and often much more
    rapidly than in the United States. The only unusual aspect of suicide
    in the United States was that it involved guns. The irrelevancy
    of guns to the increase in American suicide is evident because suicide
    among English youth actually increased 10 times more sharply, with “car exhaust poisoning [being] the method of suicide
    used most often.”145 By omitting such facts, the articles blaming
    guns for increasing American suicide evaded the inconvenience of
    having to explain exactly what social benefit nations with few guns
    received from having their youth suicides occur in other ways.
    •  Sorry but that isn't a study (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, gerrilea, tytalus, 43north, lyvwyr101

      it is an article, published in a student-edited publication and not subject to peer review. It has been widely discredited. It's authors are Don Kates, a 2nd Amendment lawyer who works for the NRA, and Gary Mauser is also a paid NRA consultant. They are the gun lobby's version of climate change denial "scientists"

      You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

      by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 02:07:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How can you ignore the data? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The underlying data? Data self reported and published by the individual countries?

        Anyway, I think we are arguing at cross purposes. I want the problem of suicides and mental health addressed in our population. You appear to want a gun control. I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this.

        I'm going to continue to address mental health problems in a causal manner. I'm going to ask my elected representatives to do the same.

        It's real and it's true.

        * Don B. Kates (LL.B., Yale, 1966) is an American criminologist and constitutional
        lawyer associated with the Pacific Research Institute, San Francisco. He may be contacted
        at; 360‐666‐2688; 22608 N.E. 269th Ave., Battle Ground,
        WA 98604.
        ** Gary Mauser (Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1970) is a Canadian criminologist
        and university professor at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC Canada.
        He may be contacted at,, and 604‐291‐3652.
        We gratefully acknowledge the generous contributions of Professor Thomas B. Cole
        (University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Social Medicine and Epidemiology);
        Chief Superintendent Colin Greenwood (West Yorkshire Constabulary, ret.); C.B.
        Kates; Abigail Kohn (University of Sydney, Law); David B. Kopel (Independence
        Institute); Professor Timothy D. Lytton (Albany Law School); Professor William
        Alex Pridemore (University of Oklahoma, Sociology); Professor Randolph Roth
        (Ohio State University, History); Professor Thomas Velk (McGill University, Economics
        and Chairman of the North American Studies Program); Professor Robert
        Weisberg (Stanford Law School); and John Whitley (University of Adelaide, Economics).
        Any merits of this paper reflect their advice and contributions; errors are
        entirely ours.
        Joyce Malcolm reviewed of the subject of crime rates and homicides in England[17] and found that, "data on firearms ownership by constabulary area,” like data from the United States, show, “a negative correlation...[that is], where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."

        A 1990 study by Rich et al. on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method—namely leaping.[18] Killias argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have demonstrated, in his view, "rather convincingly", that suicide candidates do not consistently turn to other means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand.[14] A more extensive study published in 1993, however, covering far more areas and controlling for the effects of many other gun laws, found that gun control laws generally have no detectable effect on total suicide rates.[19]

        •  Because that study has been widely discredited (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tytalus, 43north, gerrilea, lyvwyr101

          I don't refute the data, I refute the conclusions drawn from that data because they are absurd.

          The quoted stuff you are using as of those studies is from yet another NRA lawyer:

          Joyce Malcom-"Next Generation Scholar" for the NRA's Civil Defense fund

          The other one uses data from the 1980's, and IMO the methodology is flawed. They use data from two major cities. Urban areas not only have lower rates of gun ownership, they have an abundance of high-rise structures from which to jump. Not a good representative sample, IMO.

          Anyways, there are numerous current, peer reviewed studies that show a direct correlation between firearm ownership and suicide rates, but I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. You can believe what you want. As for this though?

          Anyway, I think we are arguing at cross purposes. I want the problem of suicides and mental health addressed in our population. You appear to want a gun control.
          You don't seem to get it. I want both.

          You aren't the only person here who has been personally affected by this issue.

          You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

          by SwedishJewfish on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 04:13:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  We haven't tried to get rid of guns (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SwedishJewfish, lyvwyr101

      Because the gun makers/NRA don't want to collect the data. We are flying blind. Too many people benefit from the gun glut.

      Where's the data?

      It also doesn't help that the gun over people party is really loud & bi-partisan & over represented, IMO.

      •  Do we need a committee to analyze the (0+ / 0-)

        total number of suicides and their ever increasing rate?

        Take the NRA and the gun out of the picture and we're still left with thousands of deaths.  How many without a gun will go on to find other methods is debatable but it doesn't address the underlying cause, 600,000 Americans try to kill themselves each and every year and that's the low end estimate I provided.

        Despair and poverty can be addressed immediately, won't divide this nation even further, won't take amending the constitution, won't take anything but true leadership and commitment to help us all evolve into a peaceful more productive society.

        Then who's going to want or "need" a gun then?  

        We have to address the media's role in depicting violence as cool and glorious.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 10:56:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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