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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meetup: Austerity, Triple Dip Recessions and Economic Crisis (79 comments)

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  •  fighting for the long term looks like a better (5+ / 0-)

    deal at this point -- as long as they don't kill us (and themselves)off completely in the meantime!

    •  we definitely need to be building now (8+ / 0-)

      there is no doubt that the con-dems will be out of power at the next election, however, labour is not planning on overturning the measures passed under this government. What we really need is a united left, building the movement (domestically and internationally as they have done this in much of the capitalist periphery, there is incredible exploitation going on there and this is being done throughout the advanced capitalist world) and perhaps (depending on the country) building a left-wing broad party of the left to give people something else to vote for than neoliberals of whatever stripe.

      "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

      by NY brit expat on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 11:29:18 AM PST

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    •  Who is fighting for the long term? (7+ / 0-)

      I see a bunch of bickering over the deck chairs, but I don't see anybody setting a "new" course.    For a delusional minute, I thought we had something when Lamont successfully primaried Lieberman.   The Democrats took less than a minute to give us a dirty look, pick up, brush off, and prop up Lieberman.    

      The game is rigged, and we aren't even in the ball park.

      What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

      by dkmich on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 11:31:33 AM PST

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      •  this is where the importance of building (8+ / 0-)

        a left-wing movement and possibly a broad party of the left would be useful. We are not in the ball-park as you say, we cannot even get ideas that differ taken seriously, a movement will shift balance and a left electoral party would push the dems to move if it starts winning at local level. The two must be interlinked as co-optation is easily done if we do not have both.

        "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

        by NY brit expat on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 11:40:32 AM PST

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      •  If we're not in the ball park, we might as well (7+ / 0-)

        actually get out of trying to provide a modified capitalist alternative in the hopes of winning over the liberals.  Eventually the conditions will help people see that these halfway alternatives are no real alternatives and turn to a analysis that at least has a chance of  working.

        •  Winning over the liberals? Now I'm really lost. (5+ / 0-)

          What liberals?  You can't mean the "pragmatists" here at dailykos, where reform takes a back seat to partisanship.      You can't mean the unions.   In a NY minute, they won't even exist.   The progressive caucus in Washington is a bad SNL skit.    

          Who are the liberals?   Where is the leadership?   WTF are they waiting for?   I have been here for what feels like decades.   I have longed for a front page plan that goes beyond more and better Democrats for almost a decade.      The three better the strategy elects each cycle is an uphill climb.   Meanwhile, the extremists on the right are methodically targeting and eliminating their problems and running the whole show.

          If there is a left, I honestly don't who is it and what is it doing.    And please, don't say it's me.    I have no power.  Not one bit.  And I'll be dipped and fried if I'll let Obama or anybody else sell me "the little engine that could".  

          Thanks for the conversation.

          What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

          by dkmich on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 12:16:22 PM PST

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          •  Bravo!...Couldn't have said it better myself.... (5+ / 0-)

            I don't think you need to win over liberals as much as you need to get them together and give them a direction. Egypt and the other countries in Arab Spring were little engines that could after one event pushed them into the streets where they could see how many they were and how similar their dissatisfaction.

            We are the left. It is not that we are not out there, but as of yet, we have not been organized by any crystalline event to push back. Dissatisfaction is high, and a charismatic figure could capitalize on that and use it to create sweeping change. Obama proves that. Too bad the left doesn't have a real charismatic figure that believes in the left. I am very afraid the right will find one before we do.

            For a moment, I thought Occupy might supply the needed touchstone event, but the media machine got a hold of that and tore it asunder quickly enough. And, as much as I love rule by anarchist methods, those methods proved too slow to push the system before the system drown them out. I hope that is a lesson learned for the next time we are able to get some of us to coalesce behind one cause.

            •  Thanks. Sometimes I talk faster than I type. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TPau, NY brit expat, JayRaye

              Occupy was a valiant effort; but I'm not camping in the streets or making myself vulnerable to those crazy people with all the power and all the guns.    I don't see tea partiers getting beaten and maced; and if they can figure it out, why can't we?

              I think we have to deliberately hurt the Democratic Party.   Until we can, we have no power.   And if we have no power, we also have no place else to go.    That makes us as bad as Obama.  All huff and puff and no go.

              What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

              by dkmich on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 12:58:54 PM PST

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              •  Tea parties are saying what the powerful... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NY brit expat, JayRaye, dkmich

                want said. They don't need to be maced. If you want to get liberty, you will have to take some risks. Arabs were shot at and died for their freedom. We would be lucky to get off just camping outside and being maced.

                I agree that the Dem Party is nothing more than Conservative Light. The left needs to walk away en mass to make a statement. That is going to be hard to accomplish without a charismatic leader in another party and with the two parties in control of the media, not allowing third party candidates to play, or even their own candidates if they do not adhere to the message the powerful want sent.

                Possible options for a Third Party uprising:

                Green Party: Probably the most powerful and organized at this time. Has run some good candidates in recent elections.

                Peace and Freedom Party: They also ran some good candidates in the past.

                Working Families Party: Up and coming, but still fairly new.

                and there has been a long running Socialist Party in the US that has struggled along for decades.

              •  OWS did both hurt (and in my mind help) the DNC (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NY brit expat, TPau, JayRaye, dkmich

                by waking them up somewhat like the T Party did. the difference?  T Party had the big money from the CEO's and racists they fronted for (whether that was their intent or not). The big money was out to get OWS. Still, it was important to revitalizing people.  We do have some power.  We saw that when people went out to vote because Repubs wanted to take the vote away. Unfortunately, we are still only willing to use it in the most modest Dem reforms. But in a very small way we beat very big money for a moment. It's not enough. Not even really beyond what used to be the mainstream. But it did show something, as did OWS.  the T Party is beginning to choke and die on its own hatred.  thank god.  will we be in time to change things to live to fight another day.  I don't know, but if we don't fight back, we die for sure.

              •  If we did not have power, the powerful would... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NY brit expat, Geminijen, JayRaye, dkmich

                have no reason to blatantly disregard the rule of law and the Constitution to make mass arrests of OWS or protestors at RNC/DNC. There would be no reason to have huge canisters of pepper spray.

                Those things exist because the powerful fear the "powerless."

            •  May I ask... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JayRaye, NY brit expat
              And, as much as I love rule by anarchist methods, those methods proved too slow to push the system before the system drown them out. I hope that is a lesson learned for the next time we are able to get some of us to coalesce behind one cause.
              If OWS proved too slow, what has been faster lately? What has been better over the past several decades? What would you recommend to replace it?

              Hierarchical, bureaucratic unions? Committees of elites with cadres of subservient supporters? Just trying to get a sense of what people mean by these comments.

              OWS was a rather spontaneous uprising, and what many point to as a weakness was its strength, for many of those attending. The horizontalism was unfamiliar, of course, to people in a capitalistic, hierarchical society, and there was certainly a learning curve which some simply couldn't tolerate, but as a social experiment it was exhilarating, educational, and inspired many who would not otherwise have found inspiration any other way.

              Just because it couldn't undo centuries of corruption in a few months doesn't indicate it was too slow, or that non-hierarchical, horizontal organizing methods don't work. OWS needs to keep up the effort to making consensus a smoother process, which certainly can be improved with modifications and adaptations.

              But to conclude we must return to the inequality and slavery of hierarchy is not the answer, in my view.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 03:48:31 PM PST

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