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View Diary: Beware of Tyrants in Sheep's Clothing (215 comments)

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  •  There's no written rule about this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laconic Lib

    but it's widely accepted that this much verbiage, no matter how apropos, belongs in its own diary and not in a comment.

    That said, I'll briefly address your question

    Do we need the 2nd Amendment to defend our freedom from tyrrany or is the 1st Amendment sufficient?
    To me, that's a little bit like asking Do you need the steering wheel to get to work, or is the drivetrain sufficient? But even responding that way assumes that I accept your premise that the 2nd Amendment is helpful for defending our freedom from tyranny. That premise may have been true in the days of the Founders, but I believe it's widely off-base today, when the firepower available to the government is vastly superior to that which we could tolerate in the hands of ordinary citizens.

    So to me, a more accurate answer to your question is that the whole of the Constitution is essential to defend us from tyranny -- and I believe that the 2nd Amendment could be excised from that whole, and would not be missed any more than I would miss my appendix if it had to be removed.

    (I may be wrong about the need for the 2nd Amendment; but I'm quite sure that if you're looking only at the 1st and 2nd Amendments, you're missing the big picture.)

    Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

    by Nowhere Man on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 07:40:24 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

      I am new to daily kos.

      And, after posting my comment and reading Backell's comment above, I actually did go and create my own diary re-posting my comment a little more flushed out.

      But, having said that.

      Thank you for responding to the question, and I did not mean to imply that the 2A should be taken out of context of the entre USC. But, even so, I do respect your opinion. I don't agree with it. But I do respect it. I think that this is a subject that some of us are going to have to agree to disagree. One problem though, if we muddy this current legislation with an agenda involving an ultimate intent to repeal the 2A, this will derail any progress, since a large portion of this nation feels it is necessary, if for no other reason than as an implied "soft power" ... that need never be applied. And, given the fact that we could elect an Obama after a Bush/Cheney is a testimony to the fact that our Government works without any need for violence. However, one might ask whether Bush/Cheney would have relinquished power had we not had the 2A. Makes you wonder.

      •  But this is the problem (0+ / 0-)

        'if we muddy this current legislation with an agenda involving an ultimate intent to repeal the 2A, this will derail any progress, since a large portion of this nation feels it is necessary, "

        Rhetoric like this is the problem. Fear mongers trying to go beyond the scope of the ACTUAL national conversation. No one seriously trying to repeal the second amendment.

        In fact, no one is seriously trying to take away anyone's guns.

        I'm fairly certain that Bush/Cheney would have relinquished power. We have to stop looking at every political figure as inherently evil people (well except for Cheney.)

        •  Well, actually, (0+ / 0-)

          if you read through the responses on the diary that I went and posted, due to your comment above, 35% of the 37 people who voted said they felt 2A is not needed. Now, 37 voters is not a lot, no. But, if you read through the comments on my diary, and if you read through the prolific REC list diaries, and the tens of thousands of comments therein, like in this very dairy itself, it is very clear that there is a prevailing MEME being pushed that... 

          (a) ...that 2A is not needed,
          (and you all viciously attack anyone who does think it is needed, calling us paranoid right wing fanatics, in the worst instances, (with unfounded HR abuse / harassment) or treating us with great disdain and contempt, in the least... I am not seeing ANY mutual respect or civil rational discourse coming from anti 2A folks, yet I am seeing great patient rational respectful discourse, time and time again, coming from mine)

          (b) ...that 2A does not protect individual gun ownership rights, 
          (even though historical documents prove that it clearly does, and when the irrefutable proof of this is presented, it is blatantly ignored)

          (c) ...that 2A was not intended by the founding fathers to protect individual gun ownership rights, 
          (even though the historical documents prove that it was, and this is also ignored, just as the question up thread was ignored) 

          (d) ...that 2A supporters are racist slave owners, 
          (which is is an extremely insulting way to silence opposing views, and is based upon an obscure reference in an obtuse connection, yet is entirely unfounded given the main discourse in the congress) 

          (e) ...that 2A supporters are right wing extremists who's "gun fetish" makes them a threat to society, 
          (which is just another insulting disrespectful  way to silence opposing views)

          (f) ...that the founding charter / documents of this nation are not sacred to our nation and its traditions,
          (therefore, if they do support an individual's gun ownership to protect against government tyranny, who cares, because that was 225+ years ago, and it's not like there hasn't been dozens of generations who swore to fight with their life to protect the US Constitution, except, of course, there has been... oh yeah, a minor factor in this discussion ... not! 

          So, yes, the majority of this community ABSOLUTELY IS pushing for an outright ban on all guns. ALL GUNS. That is not paranoia, that is demonstrated by your complete intolerance for any arguments involving a belief that the 2A is just as necessary as the 1A to protect our freedom from government tyranny... which is not just my belief, but it was our founding fathers' belief, as well as, the belief of generations since. Call me a radical, but I sort of revere the founding fathers and their vision, and so did my / our ancestors. 

          Now, as I said to numerous people in my diary, if you believe that the 2A is not necessary, fine. I respect that belief. I don't agree with it. But I do respect it. However, please don't claim that "black is white" by trying to deny the historical facts. This and these sorts of irrational disrespectful actions makes all of you anti 2A folks characteristically similar to the right wing folks, and as a "reality based community" the last thing you should be doing is stubbornly denying historical facts when they conflict with your bias, nor should you be demonstrating an incapacity for rational respectful discussion. Poor form, as they say.... very GOP of you. You see, liberal vs conservative is not merely determined by your positions, but rather, by the high ideal of a shared appreciation for respectful honest discussion between opposing viewpoints. GOP is intolerant of dissenting opinion, liberals are not. Ironic how the roles have reversed on this issue. Strange but true. Now, the NRA is bad, no doubt. But you guys are worse these days, and I am sorry if this offends you, but it is sadly shockingly true. 

          And last but not least, Bush/Cheney attempted what can easily be said to be an outright coup, involving massive corruption, public admission of torture on national tv, tyrannical wars under false pretenses with trumped up lies killing untold hundreds of thousands of people, repeal of Habeas Corpus, illegal wire taps, corporate corruption on a massive scale, stolen elections in 2000 and 2004, etc etc etc .... and with the very real threat of a tribunal at the Hague for War crimes, or maybe even war crimes here.... I am sorry, but no, I absolutely do not believe that Bush/Cheney would have relinquished power had it not been for the 2nd Amendment. 

          And I think if you are really honest with yourself, neither do you. 

          But, be that as it may: 

          You have your beliefs.

          I have mine.

          I respect you and your beliefs. 

          Please respect me and mine.

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