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View Diary: Instead of "Assault Weapons", how about a fire-rate restriction? (173 comments)

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  •  Here's the thing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MarEng, annecros

    My semiautomatic 9mm can fire just as fast a .223 AR15. Is my 9mm semiauto pistol the same as an AR15? If only based on rates of fire, they are the same.  

    "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

    by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 10:13:12 AM PST

    •  Why does that matter? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero, BlackSheep1

      Perhaps your AR15 would be allowed, depending on the rate of fire set. I would assume some pistols would be restricted as well.

      I see what you did there.

      by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 10:26:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you're also saying legitimate hunting rifles (0+ / 0-)

        and shotguns that happen to be semiautomatic and have the same rate of fire as an AR15 could be restricted as well? I'm just trying to see where you're going with this argument?

        "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

        by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 11:06:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You going to tell me how fast I can... (0+ / 0-)

        ...pull the trigger on my firearm? I don't care what you say, that's funny. Get er done!

        ego sum ergo ego eram

        by glb3 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:13:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, i'm going to tell you how fast the gun can (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh

          respond to your trigger pulls! Have a great day!

          I see what you did there.

          by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:26:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Plus, you can't hit anything moving and (0+ / 0-)

          certainly can't defend yourself from the side or behind if you have to focus really hard to pop off competition-level firing and reloading, so I'm not really concerned about that.

          I see what you did there.

          by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:27:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero, GoGoGoEverton

          It would require some re-engineering of the trigger, but there has to be a way to design it so that there's a delay before it can be fired again.

          They have such triggers available on nail guns, for safety reasons.  

          Why not have this when shooting bullets?

          I think this should be required on guns that are sold without registration.  If you want to own the most dangerous weapons, without such restrictions, then you should at least be required to register them and be responsible for what happens to them.  

          •  Some sort of 3 minute egg timer thingy? n/t (0+ / 0-)

            ego sum ergo ego eram

            by glb3 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:43:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  How about a one time thermal fuse, replaceable, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero

              that disables the firing pin if x number of shots are fired in y time.  Say, 8 shots in 8 seconds, too hot, firing pin disabled.

              Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

              by Ohiodem1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 01:23:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Kind of like a flintlock? (0+ / 0-)

                Are you a gunsmith?

                ego sum ergo ego eram

                by glb3 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 01:43:43 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  The guns we are talking about... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1

                ...are mechanical devices, not electronic devices.

                ego sum ergo ego eram

                by glb3 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 01:47:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  There area all kinds of thermal limiters. (0+ / 0-)

                  I come from an electral background, but there are mechanical thermal limit devices, with very sharply calibrated trip characteristics.

                  No, I am not a gunsmith, but the debate is on, and ideas should be put out on the table.  Change is coming.  Some devices have springs that disengage if the thermal fusing element gets too hot, some are bi-metallic sandwiches that open with a mechanical snap, and can re-set when cooled, but it would take a fair amount of time.  I am sure some mechanical engineers can chip in if they wanted to, with better how-to's for this or some other kind of limitation on the number of shots a firearm could fire in a finite, and defined time frame.

                  Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

                  by Ohiodem1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 02:07:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Would hate to have a thermal trigger... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...disengage because I fired too many rounds while protecting myself. How would the gun know if it was being used for self defense or murder?

                    ego sum ergo ego eram

                    by glb3 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 05:08:45 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It wouldn't. You are describing a fire fight (0+ / 0-)

                      in a protective situation.  If you are a cop or military person, this type of trigger is not for you.  If you are going to shoot up a theater, and you have an assualt weapon, then it makes sense.

                      How many self defense situations require more than one discharge of the defendee's weapon.  Very few, I suspect.

                      Anyway, I'm just brainstorming here.

                      Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

                      by Ohiodem1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 07:31:48 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  I'd settle for 1 second.... (0+ / 0-)

              You can probably do 1 round per second in a fast bolt action.  It doesn't need to be slower than that.

              Maybe just requiring the shooter to press a reset of some kind between shots would slow things down enough to prevent the "bump firing" and such which is so fast it seems almost indistiguishable from full-auto.

    •  Here's the question (0+ / 0-)

      Could Adam Lanza have done what he did with a gun like yours ?

      Reality ? What has that to do with Opera ?

      by greatferm on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 10:39:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Probably (0+ / 0-)

        Though I believe in this situation, a 6 shot revolver or a 6 shot 30-30 lever action deer rifle could have done the same.  In other situations where more adults are around to stop him, it may not have happened.  Once he was inside of that classroom full of 5-6 year olds, it didn't matter what kind of gun he had.  

        "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

        by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 10:49:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's debatable (0+ / 0-)

          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

          by coquiero on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 10:55:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You have convinced me (0+ / 0-)

          That the only way to prevent Newtown from happening, at regular, or irregular intervals, is to begin the generations long process of getting these tools out of out society.

          I'll take the chance that I will be killed by a burglar before I'll take the chance of more kids being killed.

          Reality ? What has that to do with Opera ?

          by greatferm on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 10:59:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I would agree (0+ / 0-)

            0 guns in society will stop almost all mass murderers.

            "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

            by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 11:17:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, It Wouldn't (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              glb3, BlackSheep1

              Before 9/11 the worst mass murder ever in NYC was done with a can of gasoline.

              Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

              by The Baculum King on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:12:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's not a worthwhile conversation to have (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1, Smoh

                as it's all speculation.

                I see what you did there.

                by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:28:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  A Person Determined to Kill Will Kill (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BlackSheep1

                  If your mindset becomes fixated on the idea that your life and death will somehow acquire meaning ONLY if you take a bunch of innocents with you a mere inconvenience will not stop you.

                  Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

                  by The Baculum King on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:31:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  While this is true (0+ / 0-)

                    it's not deniable, imo, that a high-capacity weapon capable of being fired at a high-rate with little-to-no training makes it easier...and is a more accessible means to the end.

                    I see what you did there.

                    by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:33:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I Didn't Realize Degree of Difficulty (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BlackSheep1

                      Was the objective.

                      Making it more difficult to shoot your husband for cheating might result in fewer perforated adulterers, but those deranged enough to kill children they don't know won't be deterred by inconvenience.

                      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

                      by The Baculum King on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:37:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There are 300million+ guns in the US. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        BlackSheep1

                        If we banned them all tomorrow, shootings would still happen and probably close to as frequently as they did the day before they were banned. I think where we need to find common ground is risk mitigation, and I think that involves keeping weapons capable of mass murder and violence out of the hands of people who need little training to use them effectively, and then getting to the root sources of why they're choosing to do so in the first place.

                        Which is why the NRA/Republicans are so LOL when they talk about that, because WTF have they ever done to support public mental health programs?

                        I see what you did there.

                        by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:41:37 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Catching Snakes By the Tail Gets You Bit (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          BlackSheep1

                          It is simply not possible to eliminate all means of mass killing, human bodies are just too fragile. The approach, to be effective, will have to come from the other end; figuring out what makes the very few willing to do these things and how to identify them before it happens.

                          Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

                          by The Baculum King on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:47:30 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Right! yet not sans exception, The Baculum King: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Smoh

                            I twice witnessed my mother grabbing a snake by the tail and popping it, bullwhip-fashion, very quickly. Both times she thereby killed the snake, without getting bitten herself. Once, it was to stop me stepping on the snake, and  the other time it was to stop a snake raiding a setting hen. It is not a feat I ever wanted to duplicate, because it involves grabbing the snake.

                            Any one cure we try isn't going to be enough, alone; we've got to create an approach that both diagnoses and remedies the causes, and one that prevents the effects, of whatever it is driving the individuals like the Virginia Tech shooter, the Clackamas mall shooter, the Aurora theatre shooter, or the Newtown school shooter.

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 02:32:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  There goes the neighborhood. (0+ / 0-)

                      Conversation over.  Once the sarcasm starts, it's all over.

                      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

                      by Smoh on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 03:59:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not talking about all mass murders (0+ / 0-)

                It was more in response to school mass murders. 0 guns would probably stop almost all mass murder in schools because almost all mass murders in schools are done with firearms.  0 guns isn't going to happen anytime soon and mass murders in general can and still will happen with other weapons.  No doubt about that.  

                "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

                by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 07:34:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Hate of others... (0+ / 0-)

              ..., and the desire to do them harm, didn't appear on this planet with the invention of gun powder.

              ego sum ergo ego eram

              by glb3 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:34:48 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Almost all (0+ / 0-)

              Except those committed with kerosene (David Koresh), fertilizer (Oklahoma city), smallpox (Indian wars), and have we already forgotten box cutters?

              It is a genuine good to force the bad guys to change tactics and to strew obstacles in their paths, but we need to have realistic expectations about the results.

        •  I'll quibble, a little, Texas Lefty (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GoGoGoEverton

          once he was inside that building ... he might have, possibly, been stopped. But not without having to confront a trained adult, or better still, two ... a resource not available to the heroic teachers and administrators who did give their lives to protect their students.

          It would've taken a lot more reloading to do the damage he did with a six-shot anything; and if you're old enough to remember "The Rifleman" you're old enough to remember how fast a practiced handler can empty the magazine on a lever action rifle -- I make no claims for accuracy at such a rate of fire, never having trained with a  weapon of that kind.

          But the Air Force turned me from somebody who'd never touched such a firearm to somebody they deemed proficient with an M-16 in just over a week's time (counting extra practice on the weekends), back in the '70s.

          I suspect a .223 revolver can be built -- have you ever heard of a rechambering? -- that could carry eight or 10 rounds.

          People aren't like deer. Deer are either fallen, or in the next county after the second round fires.

          People who keep coming after the first round goes off represent the entire reasoning behind things like the M-1, the M-14, the M-16/M-4, and automatic weapons starting with the Gatlin gun and working forward through the Ma Deuce and the M-60 to today's battlefield weapons.

          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 02:17:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with TexLeft (0+ / 0-)

      There are true hunting rifles with an autoloading action (semi-automatic) with a rapid rate of fire but small magazines.  Ditto for some autoloading shotguns.  I know of no good reason to own a pistol, but the "automatic" pistol that is actually autoloading/semi-automatic is in the same category.

      Assault rifles are not good for hunting.  They are simply military rifles modified to be not fully automatic.  They are for spraying bullets at people.  An assault rifle with a large magazine is a killing machine.  Nothing else, except maybe an ego booster and substitute for an adequately large sex organ.

      Ban assault rifles, large magazines, and bullets than can pierce law enforcement not-quite-bullet-proof vests.  Enforce full background checks.  Enforce perjury on Form 4473, the federal form for background checks.

      •  About Those Vests (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, Dogs are fuzzy

        The vast majority of police vests are only designed to stop most common handgun rounds; almost any hunting rifle from the .30/30 up will sail right through.

        Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

        by The Baculum King on Mon Jan 21, 2013 at 12:14:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  To amplify (0+ / 0-)

          Whenever this point comes up, someone shrieks "Why do you need a cop killer bullet for hunting?!".

          All that is needed for a bullet to go through an obstacle is for it to be heavy and fast enough. No special engineering is needed.

          The cartridges people were hunting deer with a hundred years ago require unusually awkward body armor to stop them.

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