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  •  not that there's anything wrong with that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rserven, Rogneid

    after spending a full day giving an entire body waxing to my boyfriend specifically FOR purposes of "sexual perversion" I think the trans community needs to come to grips with the crossdressing community (who vastly outnumber them).  Not even a medical doctor could tell at a glance the difference between a very passable crossdresser going out for an evening and a late-transitioning transsexual.  For some people the feminisation process is very sexual indeed.

    NOT that most crossdressers go out dressed for sexual thrills, quite the contrary.  Of course there are some idiot CD's, usually newbies who do go out and make asses of themselves, pretending to be hookers and whatnot.

    But I think you are misunderstanding the objection of most people who don't like the restroom idea (or maybe I'm just being too charitable about those people).  I don't think the people are saying that transsexuals, or even crossdressers are sexual perverts who get off on the idea of being in a women's restroom.  I think they are saying that the men who ARE sexual perverts who get off on the idea of being in women's restroom would simply dress up as women and pretend to be transsexuals to indulge their kink.

    There isn't some sort of traffic cop checking the licenses of people who use the restroom to see what their official gender is.

    •  Penalizing people because someone might... (9+ / 0-)

      ...pretend to be them in order to break the law.  That makes sense.

    •  I Think Society (7+ / 0-)

      Has a problem understanding that certain categories of people do not intersect.

      People who have a conviction about their gender or sexuality that is outside society's norms are somehow automatically lumped in with people who are driven to sexual predation, harming others or violating others' privacy and rights.

      I think I understand the horror that trans people feel about being grouped together with men who would dress like women in order to violate a woman's privacy or safety.

      I'm a gay guy and I find the public notion that people like me are somehow in the same class of people as child molestors to be incomprehensible. I can't imagine two more different groups of people than gay men and men who would molest children.

      "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

      by bink on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 04:57:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think the public is grouping them (0+ / 0-)

        together.  Maybe I am being too optimistic about the public.  My point is that the casual observer cannot tell the difference between a crossdresser, a late-transitioning transsexual, or some creepy pee pervert who is handy with femme transformation.  Opening the legal restroom door for the first two groups or even for the first group by necessity opens the door to the third group.

        •  My Perspective Is a Bit Different (7+ / 0-)

          I hope you don't mind me commenting again here and disagreeing.

          I don't think that the rights for trans people should be curtailed because of what a casual observer can or cannot tell the difference between. The existence of a pervert should not be permitted to harm the right of an innocent person to do something as usual as access the restroom for what is undeniably a universal, biological need.

          I myself wouldn't mind unisex bathrooms that provided more privacy. I'm not particularly thrilled to be standing up at a urinal with a bunch of guys or crowded in a row of stalls. Give everybody a door and be done with it.

          "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

          by bink on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 05:11:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  nobody is saying that trans people can't use the (0+ / 0-)

            restroom.  They just feel uncomfortable about trans people using the right one.

            Personally I don't see what the fuss is all about.  I've frequently used the men's room at overcrowded arena shows, theaters, etc.  The line is always so long at the women's!  The men have been startled, but I've never felt threatened.

            I can see both sides.  We do make special accommodation in our society to protect women from men.  Unfortunately that divide is now based on how passable a trans woman or crossdresser is, and that's wrong too.

            •  Which, in your mind, is the "right" one? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rserven, Cassandra Waites, irishwitch

              Please explain which restroom is the "right" one for me who is post operative. Which is the "right" one for a pre-op? You probably don't see what all of the "fuss" is about because you've never been threatened with arrest or bodily harm for needing to pee. The "pee perverts" as you name them, don't exist or exist in such insignificant numbers as to amount to a straw man argument. Next time you have your skull fractured for having the temerity to walk down the street, let me know and we'll commiserate together.

              "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

              by MargaretPOA on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 05:37:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The "right" one for a pre-op OR post-op (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rserven

                trans woman is the women's restroom OF COURSE.  And MtF crossdressers too.

                But in general society I would say there are about as many creepy perverts as trans women.  There are not a lot of trans women out there, and there are a lot of creepy perverts.  I don't have stats on that, though.

                There is never a risk of arrest for a trans woman using the men's room.  As for risk of bodily harm, if that's the only argument, then that's a larger argument.  NO woman should have to risk bodily harm by using whatever damn restroom is in the building, whether men's OR women's.  That speaks to our rape culture.  And as a cis woman who has fought off three attempted rapes, I certainly do understand rape culture.

                Every time I go out with my girlfriend I risk being physically attacked over her very non-passable appearance, so please tone down your anger.  

        •  You are aware, I hope (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rserven

          that there's a gigantic conceptual (and legal) distinction between who can use a particular restroom and what a person can legally (or even socially acceptably) do in that restroom? Since the limits of what your "creepy pee pervert" is allowed to do in a women's restroom are exactly the same as the limits of what he/she could do in a men's restroom, where's the problem? Stare or slobber? Get barred from future use of that restroom by the facility management. Grope or worse? You win a nice trip in the back of a police car. That's the case now and no gender-based anti-discrimination law will change that, since the unacceptability/illegality of that sort of conduct is completely unrelated to the relationship between the perpetrator's body parts and the sign on the door.

          Writing in all lower-case letters should be a capital offense

          by ebohlman on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:27:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ayup (9+ / 0-)

        I'm a crossdresser, but I crossdress for gender reasons. I do NOT pass. I try to avoid the whole restroom issue--find unisex ones and the like--but, when I'm dressed, passing or not, going in a public men's room would be taking my life in my hands. Period. I don't get off going into a ladies' room (even though I'm sexually attracted to women)--there are stalls. I can't see shit (and you can't see me) in a women's room unless we're out of the stalls at the same time--and, then, we're both covered up. Anyone reacting to my presence in a ladies' room isn't reacting to anything I've done--they're reacting to the fact that I don't pass. Period.

        "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

        by ChurchofBruce on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 06:01:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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