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View Diary: The Moral Realities of Self Defense Shootings (238 comments)

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  •  You're free to make that decision. (8+ / 0-)

    Really, if you're unsure you would pull the trigger, it'd be a bad idea to carry a firearm anyway.

    Even if you valued the mugger's life at zero, it's quite possible that the emotional trauma, police work and hassle of having to deal with the aftermath could outweigh the value of the contents of your wallet.

    From a purely economic point of view, to use a recent example, assuming that George Zimmerman was telling the complete truth, he may have been better off in the end had he simply let Trayvon beat him for a while.  He'd be out $800 or so in hospital fees, almost certainly still be alive, and no one would have any idea who he was (and presumably he'd still have his job and be able to walk around in public.)

    •  And therein lies the rub (6+ / 0-)

      That's the biggest issue.    We have no idea in that situation what really happened, and the only way we'd know is if someone was alive.

      That's the part that gets to me.  I don't pretend to know the answers for everyone, just myself.   But reading the discussion here I am glad of those who can talk seriously about the real difficulties of killing someone, or defending yourself.

      Meanwhile, I look at my facebook feed today and it's full of pictures and rah-rah stories of someone shooting someone else.   I am always glad to hear from people, even those I disagree with who can value the difficulty of this decision and lose the "rah-rah" nature that has been adopted.

      Thank you for your comment.

      Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

      by Chris Reeves on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 12:25:34 PM PST

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      •  I don't see any reason to not be happy... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Baculum King

        that innocent people successfully defended themselves.

        Anything else appears rather distasteful to me.

        •  This is too simple (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kevskos, salamanderempress, splashy

          I am of course glad that they have survived and are OK.   But realize, the people bragging about these stories is not the person who saved their own life.  Instead, it's people who post their pictures and stories with comments like "HELL YEAH!" and "Right On!", and that's the part that does make me sad.

          What has happened to that person, even the one that has saved their own life is a complex and very personal moment that has a lot of strings attached to it.  

          Boiling it all down to "hell yeah! kick ass!" and similar takes someone else's anguish and turns it into a coined phrase.  It takes someone's death and makes a mockery of it.  

          Whether the person who was killed was a terrible, horrible person or not, they were still a  human being who is dead.  And the emotion a lot of people feel is far more complex then punchlines.

          I don't mind that people are OK.  I just want to think a bit about the reality of what happens to everyone involved, and to realize it's not as simple as the rah-rah.  It's OK if you disagree with me.  I can respect that.

          Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

          by Chris Reeves on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:38:55 PM PST

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          •  I think you may well be vastly oversimplifying.... (0+ / 0-)

            peoples reaction.  A hearty "hell yeah" could be, simultaineously, an expression of congratulations, relief, and joy, encompassing many aspects.

            Language is complicated and layered.  This doesn't always translate well across the cold messenger of the internet.

    •  I'm curious, wouldn't that Florida "Stand your (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kevskos

      ground" law make it legal for Trayvon Martin to beat the hell out of a creepy weirdo guy that was threateningly following him around in a place where Trayvon had a perfect right to be?

      "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens," -Friedrich Schiller "Against Stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain"

      by pengiep on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 06:28:28 PM PST

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    •  "almost certainly still be alive," (0+ / 0-)

      The rest is true. But that is just a bet of yours there is noway to know beforehand if a violent event will turn deadly. Even if there are no weapons. A fist can easily be deadly.

      Id rather take a punch or two in the face than deal with having killed someone. The problem is you never know where it will stop, as such if its at all even close to possible, giving absolute leeway to the initial victim is the only option.  

      Maybe the crazed drug addict will take your wallet and leave.

      Maybe you hand over your wallet and the guy blows you away any way.

      If you have the option to end the threat with safety for yourself and loved ones, the law should be, and morality is on your side. .

      •  Of course a crazed drug addict (0+ / 0-)

        Would take your wallet and leave, since they want the money to get the drugs.

        Not likely to blow you away, because they know that the penalty is far worse for that.

        But, that's not what the diary is about. It's about how you would feel afterwards if you killed them. You may feel it was morally right, but there is a likelihood that you will still feel crappy about it, and reply the scene over and over again.

        That's how our minds work, trying to find a better solution to the situation.

        Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

        by splashy on Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 01:52:50 AM PST

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      •  Statistically, he was unlikely to die. (0+ / 0-)

        Most street fights, even one-sided ones, don't end with the death of the victim.

        If the victim decides they're not interested in playing the odds with dying because some jerk attacks them, I don't really blame them.

    •  The Mugger Sets the Value of Their Life (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      misslegalbeagle

      The potential victim that successfully resists merely accepts that valuation.

      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

      by The Baculum King on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:35:15 PM PST

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