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View Diary: Sanctuary knocker, Durham Cathedral – safety, at a terrible price (54 comments)

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  •  How fascinating (6+ / 0-)

    In this country, I think we're largely in the hump-back, monster camp of Richard III observors. I've gotten other perspectives (including the Ricard III Society—I'd actually looked at their website years ago), among which are a couple of Pitkin Pictorial pamphlets. In them they posit that (paraphrased) "recent research finds that he was well regarded in his time". I don't know if there is a bias in those books and I don't know what the common wisdom is in the UK, but at least I'm open to fresh facts, should they appear.

    I was amused by the comment in the article that they would "test against the DNA of Richard's descendants". Any direct descendants, if they existed, have probably disappeared in the mists of time. His one legitimate son died young and likely before able to father offspring. While there were two known bastard children, the male might have produced children but any of the female's progeny is quite murky.

    That doesn't rule out descendants of niece Elizabeth, however, who would share some DNA markers with her uncle. Her bloodline is unbroken to the current monarch, although through several sidesteps.

    Those sidesteps, by the way, may result in some awkward notions among the royal family. I saw a program a few years ago prduced and narrated by Prince Edward. In a scene at the Royal Armory at the Tower, he pointed to a suit of armor and proudly announced that it "was worn by my ancestor, Henry VIII".

    I jumped up immediately and shouted at the screen, "no he wasn't!" Henry VIII may have had six wives, but he only had three children, and none of them produced heirs. The line continued through his sister. He's actually Henry's 13th great grand nephew.

    I would have thought that the third in line for succession (at best, and only early on), having little prospect for the throne, would have had plenty of time to get the family genealogy straight.

    •  As it turns out… (5+ / 0-)

      They have found another source: Canadian Descendant (sic). The line is much as I suggested, although instead of through Mrs. Tudor (Edward's daughter, Elizabeth), it's through another of Edward/Richard's sisters.

      I love this stuff.

      •  As always... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KenBee

        ...mitochondrial DNA rules! :)

        Let's hope. The question is, IF it turns out to be a match, it would be interesting if the current 'Saxe-Coburg-Gotha' descendents actually decide, for PR reasons, to offer a Royal burial to their murdered 'non-ancestor'. I know that British Royal remains are scattered from Winchester to Rouen.

        I suppose the easiest way would be to place his remains in the empty tomb in Leicester Cathedral !

        'Per Ardua Ad Astra'

        by shortfinals on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 05:24:08 PM PST

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        •  On my first trip to London… (0+ / 0-)

          …we visited Westminster Abbey (who doesn't?) and after oohing and ahing over the nave, the Coronation Chair (with the Stone of Scone—since returned to the Auld Sod), and Poet's Corner, we repaired downstairs where we saw Wren's model. Wandering around I found a small, simple marker in one of the cubbies that said "John of Gaunt". I didn't have the grasp of the Royal Succession I do know, although the name was vaguely familiar. It seems to me, at this distant remove, that there was a lot of room for other personages in the area.

          Now since that was the patriarch of the House of Lancaster (spelling all this out for the colonials), and the Beauforts, and all he merited was that obscure location, perhaps they could squeeze a York in there, too.

          After all, up in Peterborough Cathedral, Mary Queen of Scots lay practically next to Katherine of Aragon—an equally awkward pairing (until Mary's son moved her "downtown").

          On a somewhat related note (well, Beafort related), have you read Katherine by Anya Seton? Best book ever, not made into a move, but should have. Seton was the daughter of Ernest Thompson Seton, founder of the American Boy Scouts. You Brits have some history of your own in that field.

    •  This is the Prince Edward who said he.. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pittie70, KenBee

      ...wanted to form a TV production company (after being a 'gofer' for Andrew LLoyd-Weber for a spell), and promised that he would NOT make any films about the Royal Family...and then proceeded to do ONLY that. Please note that he is the ONLY Prince, of this generation, who has not been awarded a Dukedom.

      'Per Ardua Ad Astra'

      by shortfinals on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 05:13:30 PM PST

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      •  Made me go look (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shortfinals

        Had no immediate recollection of who he was.  I'd guess he PO'ed the old man by not staying in the military.

        “that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.” Thomas Jefferson

        by markdd on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 08:45:08 PM PST

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        •  You do NOT quit the Royal Marines.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          markdd

          ...initial course, because you can't hack it, you keep going until you are 'carried out on your shield' or fail on medical grounds. I think that they wanted another branch of the Services with a Royal in it. Can't even THINK why they thought the Royal Marines would be suitable - he might have just about made it through Sandhurst and into the Army, but the initial Marine training is brutal........

          'Per Ardua Ad Astra'

          by shortfinals on Fri Jan 25, 2013 at 08:55:03 PM PST

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