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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: Immigration, gun violence legislation and more (158 comments)

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  •  Thank you for the excellent roundup, Greg (28+ / 0-)

    The photo of the grief-stricken father says it better than words, doesn't it?  How revolting that gun owners dominated the meeting, shouting about their rights to own lethal weapons intended only for mass murder!

    Truly, half of this country seems to be deranged.

    We all have digital relationships--I have Kossack friends who live on the other coast, whom I'm likely never to meet in real life--but, Great Scott, I wouldn't ever claim a "romantic relationship" with someone I'd never met in real life!  What is the world coming to?

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 04:38:31 AM PST

    •  the heckling of the grieving.... (22+ / 0-)

      and those who talk about the real slaughter from guns is standard issue.  I have been posting in the firearms diaries foryears and years here and seen it among us liberals.  We need to keep going in the face of the hecklers and those who use the second amendment to cut off all regulation and even enforcement of existing laws.  Too many times they have silenced us because we have avoided the conflict with people devoted to a single issue- we fear losing the 25% of liberals who own guns over this.  We even did the same on gay marraige, and now we see the value of a sea change.  I think we need to press the issue now that there is a moment of national empathy and concern.

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

      by murrayewv on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 04:51:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And while we are at it.... (10+ / 0-)

        we should write to support Boy Scouts in considering acknowleging gay scouts as members.  My two nephews and brother are supporting this- All Eagle Scouts.  One nephew is gay and would like to be involved in an organization he loves once again.  If the US military can accept gay and lesbian service members, then surely Boy Scouts can as well.

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

        by murrayewv on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 04:55:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I haven't read anything that says (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Heart of the Rockies, lurkyloo

          gays are now going to be allowed in the Boy Scouts.  Maybe I missed something, but I thought the national level decided that they would no longer be the rule maker.  I think it's going to be up to the local groups and that doesn't mean it's going to happen in many places.


          The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

          by nupstateny on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 05:17:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  He wasn't heckled (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jo fish

        as has been pointed out here. It was yet another deceptive edit by NBC.

        •  Okay, he wasn't heckled (5+ / 0-)

          He was treated badly by unsympathetic gun owners who think owning any gun they want trumps this father's grief over the senseless loss of his 6 year old child.
          Better?

          “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

          by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 06:25:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "2nd Amendment !" "Shall not be infringed !" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skohayes

            Yelled out as reasons for keeping high-capacity massacre-enabling guns out there.

            That's not heckling.

            It is far worse.

            "Have you left no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" Army Attorney to Sen. McCarthy, 1954. "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012.

            by bontemps2012 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 11:09:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  The diary you refer to took (3+ / 0-)

          umbrage of the word "heckling," saying that the outbursts in the audience were responding to Mr. Heslin's question in order to "correct the record."  In his testimony Mr. Heslin had given his considered opinion that there was no need whatsoever for individuals to own semi-automatic weapons with magazines that were capable of spraying 30 or more bullets in a matter of a few seconds, blowing apart whole groups of people.  There is no record to correct here - this was the father's opinion.  His question was why - why anyone needed a weapon such as he described.

          And the respondents never answered that question.  The outbursts were loud and chaotic, but what replies could be understood in the din were variations of "It's our right" which didn't answer Mr. Heslin's question at all.  Because there is no answer to why someone needs these weapons - none at all.

          The only reason people have the "right" to own such weapons is because no law has been passed to prohibit it; the constitution doesn't grant to right to own any weapon.  Certain weapons can be, and should be, prohibited by law without infringing on the Second Amendment.  And guns like those used at Sandy Hook should be.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 07:28:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I do not disagree with your (0+ / 0-)

            sentiments on some weapons, But that isn't the point. look at the entire video. They may not have answered his question but they were not shouting him down or heckling.

            •  So blame the headline writers. (0+ / 0-)

              They often write inaccurate headlines.  You're correct that what happened wasn't heckling, and that term should not have been used by anyone who viewed the video or read the entire writeup of the meeting.  However no one should be able to claim that the outbursts were answering the father's question, either.  That's at least as inaccurate as "heckling."

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 09:29:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  He most certainly was. MSNBC ran the whole thing. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StrayCat, buffie, blugrlnrdst

          He asked a question and the shouted responses were not answers to his question. Shouting "the second amendment" to every question is not an answer or a legitimate response.   Lawrence O'Donnell's commentary was spot on.

        •  bullshit (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ratcityreprobate, Mr MadAsHell
          Hint: if the moderator of a public meeting says you will be cleared from room if you don't shut up, you are heckling
          @davidfrum via Twitterrific

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 08:34:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Classy reply (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LS Dem

            Look I am NOT defending those clowns, but he clearly asked for a response and sever seconds later several gave some. They were not shouting. They appear bad enough, no need to exaggerate the nonsense.

            •  see frum (0+ / 0-)

              I agree it doesn't need to be exaggerated, but Frum is right and you aren't. It's really that simple.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 08:52:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Look at the UNEDITED video (0+ / 0-)

                And then say he was heckled. Please ... Its NBC for goodness sakes.

              •  See Frum indeed (0+ / 0-)

                http://www.thedailybeast.com/...

                "In retrospect, I'll concede this: the CTPost' s use of the word 'heckling' was misjudged, and it was not the right word for me to have repeated."
              •  Jeez dude (0+ / 0-)

                A "sorry about the vulgarity and I stand corrected " would be nice for a front page  writer?

                •  this Newtown resident has little patience (0+ / 0-)

                  for what I perceive as rudeness to one of my stricken neighbors.

                  You are not right and there's no apology warranted.

                  A very fair and neutral reporter, Ken Dixon was there.

                  Later, a dozen or so of the enthusiasts actually heckled (definition: "objections designed to embarrass") and interrupted Neil Heslin, the father of Jesse Lewis, a first-grader among 20 dead.

                  He rhetorically asked what gave people the right to own the type of military-style weaponry that killed 26 in the school, when they piped up "The Second Amendment," until Senate Majority Leader Martin Looney offered to empty the room.

                  While rude and indicative of a certain strata of gun owners who are defeating their own arguments through boorish public behavior, these angry, mostly white guys seem to be embarrassing outliers.

                  http://www.ctpost.com/...

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:28:37 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  more definitions (0+ / 0-)
                  heckle [ˈhɛkəl]
                  vb
                  1. to interrupt (a public speaker, performer, etc.) by comments, questions, or taunts
                  heckled  past participle, past tense of heck·le (Verb)
                  Verb
                  Interrupt (a public speaker) with derisive or aggressive comments or abuse.
                  Heckle is the correct word. He was heckled.

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 08:17:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nope, he asked for a response (0+ / 0-)

                    And again I am not defending the jerks, just trying, as I stated before, to set the record straight. He wasn't "heckled" by an stretch. Your definition does not match what occurred, as even your authority Frum admitted. I wouldn't even be persistent if it weren't for your juvenile and rude vulgarity.

                    Have a nice day.

    •  very kind of you to say that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stein, skohayes, Amber6541

      thanks!

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 05:07:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Those rat bastards (5+ / 0-)

      I've just about had it trying to be civil with some of these "guns-at-all-cost" people. It's against my upbringing to wish them to share the experience of a family who loses loved ones to senseless gun violence. But it's getting more difficult to restrain when I hear stories like the one from Danbury. The aftereffects of losing his son in that massacre will not go away for that father from Newtown until he is laid to rest. Our family knows.

      This reminds me of what was done to Cindy Sheehan.

      There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

      by OHeyeO on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 05:10:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The rabid gun crowd, I fully believe, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eagleray, skohayes, tb mare, bdop4

        have now hit a wall - that being 12/14.

        That has changed the route of the river, so to speak.

        There will be changes; a variety of nuts and bolts changes/restrictions and a general tightening up of the process of scrutinizng legal gun buyers.

        I alsop think though, as clearly evidenced by everything from people stocking up on AR-15's, ammo and parts, we will see an increased black marketing in these weapons. A ban won't even be necessary to cause it.

        So many people are just fucking delusional about these weapons, their importance, and this bullshit "government tyranny" thing.

        I gots news for you: the government ain't going to be the enemy: it will be the corporations who own the government.

        And they don't care about dead people.

        We'll put some things together and we will reduce rates of violence and accidents.

        We won't stop these wild, random, never-saw-that-coming kinds of events. They are less frequent than hitting a giant lotto.

        We'll have prevented some tragedies, and that will be good; we cannot win them all. Even with the most draconian of laws.

        Just this morning, outside the Atlanta Federal Penn, a cop caught 4 guys trying to smuggle the following into the prison:

        2 30-packs of beer, protein powder, 2 dozen cell phones, and 2 loaded handguns.

        Superbowl party in prison.

        We cannot keep drugs, phones, and drugs out of PRISON.

        that should be a reality-based hint for some....

        The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

        by xxdr zombiexx on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 05:38:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  it would seem to me the rabid gun crowd (7+ / 0-)

          actually represents very few of gun owners; I would hazard a guess that most of this fringe group are not actual collectors or hunters or recreational shooters but would come more under the rubric of hoarder.  The problem is that media today tends to make everything about the clowns and ignores the rest of the circus so we have people who would never under normal circumstances be handed a microphone suddenly finding themselves in the spotlight

          •  yep - thats why I used the term. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skohayes, bdop4

            I am not going to badger the RKBA crowd the way others do because thet's not ehlping and they are most likely not a danger to you or yours.

            People have to accept that some people are responsible gun owners. It's just reality.

            Some people who THINK they are 'responsible gun owners" are rabid, foamy-mouthed cranks who disrupt the discussion, such as the hecklers of the Man in Newtown and those numbnuts who still spew the Sandy Hook CT.

            They are minorities, but loud and fronted by the NRA which has a lot of money and political muscle.

            They won't derail reforms this time.

            Let them huff and puff.... High winds do not last all day.

            The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

            by xxdr zombiexx on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 05:49:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  CT as in conspiracy theory (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              skohayes, entlord, xxdr zombiexx

              not CT as in Connecticut.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 05:53:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  most of the reasonable suggestions I have (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xxdr zombiexx, Amber6541, StrayCat

              seen for gun regulation (I have given up on the term "control" as too emotionally charged at this point in the discussion) simply include measures which most gun owners would already practice themselves.

              For example, waiting periods don't particularly bother me because I acquire most of my firearms by auction which requires transfer to an FFL holder ( i relinquished mine years ago) which means a normal wait for me of 2-4 weeks.  Adding a week or so to the wait time for a thorough background check gives me no grief (though if I fail such a check, I should have the right to appeal the decision since I once held both FFL and explosive permits from the BATF and I would want to know why the change in status)

              The problem arises when folks want to take away my 10 gauge Damascus twist wall hanger (with both barrels more or less rusted out due to neglect by a previous owner) when it is no more dangerous than my pair of genuine Gene Autrey cap pistols.

    •  Did you watch the video? Heckling? (0+ / 0-)

      There was no heckling.

      He asked the audience a question.  there was a long pause and a few people said something that has been reported "The Second Amendment".

      That is not heckling.. and reporting it as such is pathetic pandering for political purposes.

      •  It was a rhetorical question. (5+ / 0-)

        The response was meant to shut him down...aka 'heckling'.  

        The guy just lost his kid, and a bunch of assholes are more concerned about being members of a well armed militia...which, if we were being constitutional and literal about it, would mean that they'd need to register themselves and their AR-15s so they could be official members of said militia.

        Let's see someone propose that and then watch the gun nuts freak out.  And I'm not against guns...I grew up hunting.  I am against assault rifles and the people who masturbate with them.

        Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

        by darthstar on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 06:49:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  the response was meant to answer his question (0+ / 0-)

          He really looked like he was looking for an answer from the audience.

          •  thats not how people there reported it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ratcityreprobate
            During the hearing on Monday, Heslin asked why Americans needed “to have one of these assault-style weapons or military weapons or high-capacity clips?” Several gun advocates shouted about the Second Amendment in response. Those who shouted were admonished by the chairman, who threatened to clear the floor.

            “It didn’t really phase me,” he told CNN’s Piers Morgan. “It was no more or no less than I would have expected. It wasn’t the answer to my question.”

            Heslin said he supported the Second Amendment, but believed that assault weapons and high-capacity magazines should be restricted. He also supported universal background checks on gun purchases.

            “I am in support of the Second Amendment and I think people do have the right to bear arms and have guns.”

            http://s.tt/...

            he wasn't shouted down, but they were rude.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 07:57:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  more specifically (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ratcityreprobate

            no, he was not 'looking for answer'.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 07:58:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ratcityreprobate, darthstar
            Hint: if the moderator of a public meeting says you will be cleared from room if you don't shut up, you are heckling
            @davidfrum via Twitterrific

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 08:33:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No you are not (0+ / 0-)

              "heck·le  (hkl)
              tr.v. heck·led, heck·ling, heck·les
              1. To try to embarrass and annoy (someone speaking or performing in public) by questions, gibes, or objections; badger.
              2. To comb (flax or hemp) with a hatchel."

              Neither of these took place.

          •  You can't be serious. (0+ / 0-)

            Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by darthstar on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 10:21:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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