Skip to main content

View Diary: This is why I carry a gun when I can. (219 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I find this a very curious "data" juxtaposition: (0+ / 0-)

    "Violence is down" and therefore the need for self-defense with a firearm is lessened? or eliminated?

    However, 20+ white babies are just recently and horribly massacred and we should therefore now ban "assault weapons" even though by DiFi's own admission they account for less than 38 firearm related fatalities per year since 2004.

    Is society getting more peaceful?  Really?  

    As a someone staunchly committed to the progressive agenda, I think not and struggle to understand your pov. We are clearly much meaner as a society and the middle/disadvantaged classes are fighting for our economic, political lives and actual lives -- even if murder and other violent crime rates are declining because of the aging of the boomers and their progeny.  How can this be refuted?  

    •  How can what be refuted? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alba, Sandino, mamamorgaine, Beetwasher

      The fact that violent crime rates are declining but somehow that means society is not less violent?  WTF?

      I didn't say anything about DiFi, any particular proposal, or certainly anything about Sandy Hook (other than to say that its as irrelevant to me when I form my political opinions as when I read about shootings in the city I live in).

      All I said was claiming that this article is an example of why someone should carry a gun is a ridiculously bad argument.

      There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

      by slothlax on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 09:25:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll probably regret asking but..... (6+ / 0-)

      Why the mention of 20+ white babies?

      "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

      by CaliSista on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 10:22:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I logged in just to second this... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CaliSista, aseth, mamamorgaine, Beetwasher

        I'd love to hear why the babies being white has anything to do with this...

        "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

        by balancedscales on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 10:54:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think I can answer that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ancblu, Oh Mary Oh, CaliSista

          I imagine the idea is that no one cares about the wider gun violence issue (which disproportionally effects African Americans) until a bunch of suburban white kids get killed, then there's a knee jerk reaction to ban assault rifles.  And since assault rifles really aren't the main problem, its just a misguided feel good measure that punishes law abiding citizens for a crime they didn't commit.

          Which was not what my original comment was about in anyway, but you know, no reason to stick to the point and have a rational discussion.

          There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

          by slothlax on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:04:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you for that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            clear explanation of the point.

            I do disagree, however, that it is disassociated with your initial point up-thread and that it somehow does not contribute to the rational discussion when correctly identifying the parameters of our national public health care crisis involving firearms and the appropriate regulatory solutions that will survive constitutional scrutiny.

            •  I hear what you are saying (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ancblu, Beetwasher

              But yelling at people for being moved by a massacre is counterproductive to gaining any sympathy for your arguments (if that's what you're trying to do).

              It has made the public focus too much on the whole assault weapons issue when, as you point out, that is a distraction at most.

              There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

              by slothlax on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:29:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I will never persuade mouth breathers ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                whether on the left or the right.

                What I will do is assert my position and refute those I disagree with, whether with data and facts or contempt and ridicule as the debate dictates.

                As a matter of politics and legislation living in Alaska, I cannot do other than write my state representatives -- particularly in the Senate, since any regulation in the House is closer to DOA than not.

                In the Senate, I voted for and am represented by a Democrat - Nick Begich.   I am extremely distressed that this current political initiative from the Left will utterly poison the well for his reelection effort in 2014 -- if it has not already.

                For this reason, I am quite contemptuous of those who dismiss the potential political ramifications of irresponsible and off-target legislative efforts in this national firearm debate.  

                There is a very clear majority here on DK who explicitly "don't give a shit" and to them, I say fuck you too and will simply argue to my representatives ... don't you dare.  And I am not alone as a red-state, democratic voting, firearm owing progressive.  Both I and the NYT have addressed the reticence of Dems to embrace this fight -- and it is not a big cabal or conspiracy of the NRA.

                It is an issue that must be carefully constructed and addressed ... and sadly, I really don't see a DK majority perspective that follows the thought or care that you demonstrate.

                •  You aren't doing yourself any favors (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ancblu, aseth

                  I mean, you just basically said people who are moved by Sandy Hook are mouth breathers.  I would say they just need their passion redirected a little bit.

                  I know how tough it can be to be on the "wrong" side of an argument here.  But maybe open with a reasonable objection, then move onto contempt after someone is rude or something.  Parachuting in to "correct" people and tell them how stupid they are without offering something constructive is not going to get you nowhere.  Unless you find more mes around ;)  Seriously, though, in your pushbacks try to give some idea that you aren't just trying to muddy the waters and offer up your own ideas.  People here want common ground, show them where that is.

                  But I'm on-board with the worry about overreach.  I mean, for Lawrence O'Donnell to say gun rights advocates have blood on their hands over and over again is not the way for liberals to win on this issue, not in the long run at least.  That's the most grating example I can think of, but I do think the rhetoric is potentially harmful.

                  You are not going to win over the DK majority on this, but they are not the actual majority.  However, the actual majority does back the initiatives the president laid out and, as I mentioned in another comment, I think the AWB should be ditched in negotiations.  Its the most harmful politically and the least useful policy, not really a hard call there.  Beyond that, though, I haven't seen any proposals that I have a problem with.

                  There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

                  by slothlax on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 12:23:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I do understand effective advocacy (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    and calling someone a dipshit doesn't always advance the cause.  I agree.  Pick your battles, as they say. I like arguing or discussing with smart people and the dumb ones ... not so much.

                    But please be clear ... I do not suggest that anyone moved by Sandyhook are all mouth breathers.  This is a seriously tragic experience -- the babies, teachers, families, friends, the Nation ... Christ, even including a very ill young man and his loving mother.

                    There is nothing good from this life's experience at all, for anyone.  But if we are to draw lessons and craft policy responses then it is our responsibility to do it with care and thoughtful reflection ... and not hyper-emotional, knee-jerk reaction, from wherever on the political spectrum.

                    In this debate, I appreciate those -- like you -- who actually think and reflect.  To the others, I am not someone who will persuade but rather just another irresolute and "parachuting in" bulwark ... who as a fellow progressive is in fact far more tolerant and understanding than they will ever face in the world outside of DK.

                    Engagement can be a necessary or good thing ... even if you are out-numbered.

                    •  I didn't doubt your sympathy (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      Just telling you how it read.

                      Don't get me wrong, I'm a dick when I get going.  I just try to wait for a reason.

                      With the discussion we've had in mind, try re-reading my original comment and your response.  I was always willing to engage, but it wasn't until I defended the part of your response I was most offended by that we were able to engage.  Perhaps a gentler approach will find more common ground with other people who are less patient than me.

                      I feel weird giving advice to an elder, especially someone who's been around here for so long.  But this debate has eroded some trust and the only way to build it up again is to be civil with each other and offer more than just criticism.

                      There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

                      by slothlax on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 01:40:50 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I wonder how (5+ / 0-)

            Madelaine Hsu and Ana Marquez-Greene's families would feel about these racial assumptions.

            Or do we consider Latina and Chinese children white when it helps us make a political point? Sure, why not forget (if we ever really noticed) who they actually were. It makes it easier to gloss over the horror of the day they died and then eventually forget so we don't have to do anything.

            I know you yourself didn't actually make the "white babies" comment slothlax. But this little assumption needs to be challenged. Some of the Sandy Hook massacre victims would have checked off boxes other than "white, non-Hispanic" on college applications. But the fact that they'll never get to that point in their lives is heartbreaking just the same.

            © grover

            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:32:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  slothlax addressed the point (0+ / 0-)

          quite accurately and I have subsequently responded to that, fyi.

      •  I raise the racial issues (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Oh Mary Oh

        because the recent Newtown massacre undeniably initiated both the Administration's and Feinstein's recent gun control regulatory efforts (not to mention DK conflict among progressives) ... and in the face of continually ignored firearm violence against brown people and babies long before and still on-going.  Please ... look at the Bureau of Justice statistics on racial disparities associated with firearm violence if you have any doubt of this reality.

        It is uncomfortable to raise the racial dimensions of this acute national issue ... but to ignore it (and the rebuttable presumption of white privilege as an explanation) is to deny or avoid the evidence and reasonable analysis of it.

        •  Then pick a relevant time to make that point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino, Oh Mary Oh

          Because I didn't say anything about Sandy Hook in my comment to justify anything.   Sandy Hook is just another news story to me.

          In fact my concern has always been the flow of guns into minority communities and the groups like the NRA who run interference for the gun traffickers who supply the arms.  I wrote a diary about leveraging the AWB away to ensure sales loopholes are closed, because that's the biggest issue to me.

          What's your constructive idea?

          There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

          by slothlax on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:20:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is always relevant (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Oh Mary Oh

            when addressing this issue.  It is constructive to assert and maintain that point.

            But thank you for the link to your diary.  I will read it.

          •  Hey ... just read your "most recommended" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            from the SB.  

            A couple of things resonated ... use of language for one ... for you, there, killers, murderers, etc.   I have a similar objection ... "killing machines," "NRA shills," "fetishists" etc.

            What I will share is that I'm a history guy too ... though much older than you, and with a lot of science, law and even LAX behind me as well.  But history is about causation that depends on data and accurate "story telling" ... as does science and law.  

            And I see these issues of language, principle and truth matter to you -- and perhaps even the worthwhile objective of civil peace, maybe, if possible.   And that I respect, a great deal.  

            That diary was a long while ago, so I hope you are home again and living well ... as best one can after experiences of life.

            •  That was a memorable moment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Sitting at a computer in a shack on our desert camp for hours responding to all the comments.  I was pretty new to the community then, more defensive.  But my combativeness was met with a huge outpouring of support, not quite the same for you guys in this debate.

              I am home and doing fine thank you.  Still in the reserves, but not much longer.  I had a buddy from AIT who was from Anchorage.  He was a Democrat too, we made fast friends.

              There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

              by slothlax on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 01:17:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lots of losses up here. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                JBER's Arctic Sappers, 84th ESC, 6th Engineer Battalion (Combat) (Airborne), just redeployed for 9 months to Afghanistan.  

                Glad you are home.

                •  I was attached to the 172nd Stryker Brigade (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  Fort Rich I think.  The first few couple Iraq diaries I wrote were when I was with them.  They were literally on the tarmac getting ready to board when the order came down they were getting extended for three (?) more months and going to Baghdad.  Man were their wives pissed! It made CNN and everything.  They were pretty pissed too, but a job's a job.  Out of the half dozen unit patches I'm eligible to wear on my right sleeve, the 172nd has always been the choice.  It kinda looks like cock and balls banging the Big Dipper.

                  There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

                  by slothlax on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 02:31:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Because white babies get all the attention, just (0+ / 0-)

        as white blonde girls get noticed when abducted. Not so must babies or girls of color.

        *There are two sides to every horseshit.* Kos

        by glorificus on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:25:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (154)
  • Community (59)
  • Civil Rights (38)
  • Baltimore (38)
  • Bernie Sanders (33)
  • Culture (29)
  • Elections (29)
  • Economy (28)
  • Law (25)
  • Texas (23)
  • 2016 (21)
  • Rescued (21)
  • Environment (20)
  • Labor (19)
  • Education (18)
  • Hillary Clinton (18)
  • Racism (17)
  • Media (17)
  • Politics (17)
  • Freddie Gray (17)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site