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View Diary: This is why I carry a gun when I can. (219 comments)

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  •  I logged in just to second this... (4+ / 0-)
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    CaliSista, aseth, mamamorgaine, Beetwasher

    I'd love to hear why the babies being white has anything to do with this...

    "Kindly go render the fat in your head in a large kettle of boiling water. Thank you." - Bumblebums -7.38, -6.46

    by balancedscales on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 10:54:24 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think I can answer that (3+ / 0-)
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      ancblu, Oh Mary Oh, CaliSista

      I imagine the idea is that no one cares about the wider gun violence issue (which disproportionally effects African Americans) until a bunch of suburban white kids get killed, then there's a knee jerk reaction to ban assault rifles.  And since assault rifles really aren't the main problem, its just a misguided feel good measure that punishes law abiding citizens for a crime they didn't commit.

      Which was not what my original comment was about in anyway, but you know, no reason to stick to the point and have a rational discussion.

      There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

      by slothlax on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:04:21 PM PST

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      •  Thank you for that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slothlax

        clear explanation of the point.

        I do disagree, however, that it is disassociated with your initial point up-thread and that it somehow does not contribute to the rational discussion when correctly identifying the parameters of our national public health care crisis involving firearms and the appropriate regulatory solutions that will survive constitutional scrutiny.

        •  I hear what you are saying (2+ / 0-)
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          ancblu, Beetwasher

          But yelling at people for being moved by a massacre is counterproductive to gaining any sympathy for your arguments (if that's what you're trying to do).

          It has made the public focus too much on the whole assault weapons issue when, as you point out, that is a distraction at most.

          There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

          by slothlax on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:29:05 PM PST

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          •  I will never persuade mouth breathers ... (1+ / 0-)
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            slothlax

            whether on the left or the right.

            What I will do is assert my position and refute those I disagree with, whether with data and facts or contempt and ridicule as the debate dictates.

            As a matter of politics and legislation living in Alaska, I cannot do other than write my state representatives -- particularly in the Senate, since any regulation in the House is closer to DOA than not.

            In the Senate, I voted for and am represented by a Democrat - Nick Begich.   I am extremely distressed that this current political initiative from the Left will utterly poison the well for his reelection effort in 2014 -- if it has not already.

            For this reason, I am quite contemptuous of those who dismiss the potential political ramifications of irresponsible and off-target legislative efforts in this national firearm debate.  

            There is a very clear majority here on DK who explicitly "don't give a shit" and to them, I say fuck you too and will simply argue to my representatives ... don't you dare.  And I am not alone as a red-state, democratic voting, firearm owing progressive.  Both I and the NYT have addressed the reticence of Dems to embrace this fight -- and it is not a big cabal or conspiracy of the NRA.

            It is an issue that must be carefully constructed and addressed ... and sadly, I really don't see a DK majority perspective that follows the thought or care that you demonstrate.

            •  You aren't doing yourself any favors (2+ / 0-)
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              ancblu, aseth

              I mean, you just basically said people who are moved by Sandy Hook are mouth breathers.  I would say they just need their passion redirected a little bit.

              I know how tough it can be to be on the "wrong" side of an argument here.  But maybe open with a reasonable objection, then move onto contempt after someone is rude or something.  Parachuting in to "correct" people and tell them how stupid they are without offering something constructive is not going to get you nowhere.  Unless you find more mes around ;)  Seriously, though, in your pushbacks try to give some idea that you aren't just trying to muddy the waters and offer up your own ideas.  People here want common ground, show them where that is.

              But I'm on-board with the worry about overreach.  I mean, for Lawrence O'Donnell to say gun rights advocates have blood on their hands over and over again is not the way for liberals to win on this issue, not in the long run at least.  That's the most grating example I can think of, but I do think the rhetoric is potentially harmful.

              You are not going to win over the DK majority on this, but they are not the actual majority.  However, the actual majority does back the initiatives the president laid out and, as I mentioned in another comment, I think the AWB should be ditched in negotiations.  Its the most harmful politically and the least useful policy, not really a hard call there.  Beyond that, though, I haven't seen any proposals that I have a problem with.

              There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

              by slothlax on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 12:23:43 AM PST

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              •  I do understand effective advocacy (1+ / 0-)
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                slothlax

                and calling someone a dipshit doesn't always advance the cause.  I agree.  Pick your battles, as they say. I like arguing or discussing with smart people and the dumb ones ... not so much.

                But please be clear ... I do not suggest that anyone moved by Sandyhook are all mouth breathers.  This is a seriously tragic experience -- the babies, teachers, families, friends, the Nation ... Christ, even including a very ill young man and his loving mother.

                There is nothing good from this life's experience at all, for anyone.  But if we are to draw lessons and craft policy responses then it is our responsibility to do it with care and thoughtful reflection ... and not hyper-emotional, knee-jerk reaction, from wherever on the political spectrum.

                In this debate, I appreciate those -- like you -- who actually think and reflect.  To the others, I am not someone who will persuade but rather just another irresolute and "parachuting in" bulwark ... who as a fellow progressive is in fact far more tolerant and understanding than they will ever face in the world outside of DK.

                Engagement can be a necessary or good thing ... even if you are out-numbered.

                •  I didn't doubt your sympathy (1+ / 0-)
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                  ancblu

                  Just telling you how it read.

                  Don't get me wrong, I'm a dick when I get going.  I just try to wait for a reason.

                  With the discussion we've had in mind, try re-reading my original comment and your response.  I was always willing to engage, but it wasn't until I defended the part of your response I was most offended by that we were able to engage.  Perhaps a gentler approach will find more common ground with other people who are less patient than me.

                  I feel weird giving advice to an elder, especially someone who's been around here for so long.  But this debate has eroded some trust and the only way to build it up again is to be civil with each other and offer more than just criticism.

                  There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

                  by slothlax on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 01:40:50 AM PST

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      •  I wonder how (5+ / 0-)

        Madelaine Hsu and Ana Marquez-Greene's families would feel about these racial assumptions.

        Or do we consider Latina and Chinese children white when it helps us make a political point? Sure, why not forget (if we ever really noticed) who they actually were. It makes it easier to gloss over the horror of the day they died and then eventually forget so we don't have to do anything.

        I know you yourself didn't actually make the "white babies" comment slothlax. But this little assumption needs to be challenged. Some of the Sandy Hook massacre victims would have checked off boxes other than "white, non-Hispanic" on college applications. But the fact that they'll never get to that point in their lives is heartbreaking just the same.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Tue Jan 29, 2013 at 11:32:24 PM PST

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    •  slothlax addressed the point (0+ / 0-)

      quite accurately and I have subsequently responded to that, fyi.

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