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View Diary: WATCH: The Case Against Drones (60 comments)

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  •  Yes, because as we all know, American lives (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aliasalias, Sunspots

    are intrinsically more valuable than those furriner lives;  the lives of those other people, the ones way way way over there.

    I bet we could even quantify the difference in value; 3/5 comes to mind.

    You save American lives

    When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

    by PhilJD on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 02:11:44 PM PST

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    •  Isn't that why President Truman did what... (0+ / 0-)

      ..he did to end WW2?

      And isn't it the responsibility and obligation of any head of state to look out for the interest of his country?

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project.

      by PatriciaVa on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 02:16:46 PM PST

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      •  I categorically condemn Truman's forever staining (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Simplify, aliasalias, Sunspots

        American hands by being the only head of state to authorize use of atomic bombs. I frankly neither know nor care if he "saved American lives" in so doing.

        It's one responsibility, one obligation, of the head of state to look out for his or her own country. I choose not to see it as the only responsibility.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 02:24:26 PM PST

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      •  that has long been debunked the Bombs did NOT (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sunspots, PhilJD

        bring the end of the war, that was already in the making by the Japanese ,but it was great for showing the Soviets they had something to consider.

        without the ants the rainforest dies

        by aliasalias on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 06:13:33 PM PST

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        •  that myth that bombs ended the war needs to end (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          No Exit, Sunspots, PhilJD

          Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives.

          But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.

          The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):

          Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

          General (and later president) Dwight Eisenhower – then Supreme Commander of all Allied Forces, and the officer who created most of America’s WWII military plans for Europe and Japan – said:

          The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.

          Eisenhower also noted (pg. 380):

          In [July] 1945… Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. …the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

          During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude….

          Admiral William Leahy – the highest ranking member of the U.S. military from 1942 until retiring in 1949, who was the first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and who was at the center of all major American military decisions in World War II – wrote (pg. 441):

          It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

          The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

          General Douglas MacArthur agreed (pg. 65, 70-71):

          MacArthur’s views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed …. When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor.

          (emphasis mine)

          without the ants the rainforest dies

          by aliasalias on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 06:25:46 PM PST

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          •  "opinion" and "in all probability" equals proven (0+ / 0-)

            That's a pretty low bar for calling something a "myth".

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 07:44:53 PM PST

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            •  didn't read the link didja? (0+ / 0-)

              without the ants the rainforest dies

              by aliasalias on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 08:06:25 PM PST

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              •  sure, it's my go to site for history lessons (0+ / 0-)

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 10:49:41 PM PST

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                •  I rest my case, but here's from one link (0+ / 0-)

                  and just one paragraph from the many in the article (which all have supporting links)...

                  John Pilger
                  The lies of Hiroshima live on, props in the war crimes of the 20th century

                  The 1945 attack was murder on an epic scale. In its victims' names, we must not allow a nuclear repeat in the Middle East

                  The National Archives in Washington contain US government documents that chart Japanese peace overtures as early as 1943. None was pursued. A cable sent on May 5, 1945 by the German ambassador in Tokyo and intercepted by the US dispels any doubt that the Japanese were desperate to sue for peace, including "capitulation even if the terms were hard". Instead, the US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was "fearful" that the US air force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon would not be able "to show its strength". He later admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb". His foreign policy colleagues were eager "to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip". General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: "There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis." The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the "overwhelming success" of "the experiment".

                  without the ants the rainforest dies

                  by aliasalias on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 11:18:55 PM PST

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    •  Phil - you bet in a war American lives are more (0+ / 0-)

      valuable. If you have ever led fellow Americans on the field of battle, against our enemies, this would be very understandable to you. It is the center point of military leadership.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Wed Jan 30, 2013 at 07:07:46 PM PST

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