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View Diary: Rape + Guns = Freedom. Or something. This image popped up on my facebook today. (138 comments)

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  •  There's a significant distinction (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    murrayewv, Alice Venturi, mwm341

    between saying the victim must not encourage/enable her attacker and saying the victim must be capable of fighting off her attacker with lethal force.  For one thing, the first construction holds her attacker utterly blameless; the second holds her attacker deserving of death at her hands.

    For another, the second construction does not have the vile gendered double standard; someone who says women should be capable of fighting off rapists with lethal force is very likely to say exactly the same thing about men fighting off muggers, burglars, trespassers, and quite possibly neighbors with annoying yappy dogs.

    The second construction is still deeply, profoundly wrong.  But it isn't wrong in quite the same way.

    •  Yet it still smacks (16+ / 0-)

      of the whole "She should have done/She should not have done" XYZ to keep from being raped.  Which is putting responsibility on her to stop the rape from happening.

      Also, we already know how this goes when a woman does kill a man to defend herself--she usually goes to prison for murder.  Because there are so many other ways she should have gotten out of an abusive relationship without resorting to homicide, etc.  So I don't think that the argument she carries a gun to prevent her rape means we want her rapist to die.  Logically, yes; in practice, no.

      "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

      by Silvia Nightshade on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 10:50:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It does indeed. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dogs are fuzzy, Captain Frogbert

        But again, I don't feel that this particular instance has the same gendered double standard; they are as likely to say that a mugging victim should have carried a gun to defend himself.  (Which comparison is where the double standard is usually brought to light: no one ever says that a mugging victim was "asking for it" because he was dressed expensively or because he was carrying so much money.)

        As to the second point, I think you're conflating what actually happens with what advocates of guns-for-self-defense envision happening.  They don't want people (men or women) to go to jail for defending themselves by shooting their attackers.  They want them hailed as heroes.

        •  Nope. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia, Smoh, DarkLadyNyara
          As to the second point, I think you're conflating what actually happens with what advocates of guns-for-self-defense envision happening.  They don't want people (men or women) to go to jail for defending themselves by shooting their attackers.  They want them hailed as heroes.
          They don't want men going to jail for defending themselves.  Because what happens in real life shows us this.

          I don't care what these people envision themselves supporting when the evidence suggests the opposite.  The point is, in practice, their argument is not supported by their own actions.  Which means the argument is disingenuous in the first place because they don't truly support it.

          I'm not sure why what they envision themselves supporting deserves a separate distinction as not-sexist-victim-blaming.  Because it is.

          "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

          by Silvia Nightshade on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 11:16:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think it makes sense (0+ / 0-)

            to use what happens in real life as evidence for what people actually want, if what they want is based on what they think will happen, or think should happen.

            While it is absolutely true that the policies they support would in real life have the results you describe, I'm pretty sure those are not the results they intend or expect.

            As to why it should deserve a separate distinction ... I'm not making this distinction to suggest that it makes them morally superior, or anything of that sort.  I'm making it solely in the interests of accuracy.  It's not about what their position deserves or doesn't deserve, just about what their position actually is.

            •  The difference is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DarkLadyNyara

              they KNOW what the results will be.  Just like how Republicans say they are creating voter ID laws to stop voter fraud, but their true intent is to stop people from voting who tend to vote for the other side.  The argument that they are doing it to stop voter fraud is disingenuous, because that's not really what they're after, and that's not what the end result is, and they know this.

              So yes, I am saying that people who put forth the argument that women should have guns to prevent their rape are not being honest about what their true intent/motivations are for making that argument.  They are sexist, even if they are trying to say their argument is not.

              But keep on trying to rationalize this.  It looks good on you.  

              "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

              by Silvia Nightshade on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 12:44:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Still don't agree, but I see your point. (3+ / 0-)

                Personally I'm going with Hanlon's Razor on this one: never attribute to malice what is adequately explainable by stupidity.

                It's also possible that my perspective on the subject is being skewed by the few vehement gun advocates I know personally.  The only one I can recall using the guns-as-protection-from-rape argument is a militant feminist, who does not tolerate any of the other victim-blaming rhetoric about rape (and does advocate use of a gun to protect oneself from mugging and burglary as well).

                I grant you that her position may not be the same as the generally held one among gun advocates.

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