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View Diary: Second Amendment and other constitutional rights are not absolute (70 comments)

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  •  The second amendment should be (6+ / 0-)

    repealed.

    Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

    by JoanMar on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:09:12 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Joan - let me know when you have 2/3rds (5+ / 0-)

      of the House and Senate and 38 states signed up for that Second Amendment repeal.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:35:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you willing to work toward that end? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DefendOurConstitution

        Because I am.

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 07:43:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hell no...not in a million years... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annecros, FrankRose

          But have fun with your crusade. In the meantime, women everywhere will be happy they can shoot a rapist in the balls and avoid the lifelong nightmares that accompany being taken against their will.

          •  Wayne Lapierre is that you? (0+ / 0-)

            Women come in handy in your sick campaign on behalf of your masters, the gun manufacturers, don't they?
            Fuck off!

            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

            by JoanMar on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 08:35:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You think you can appeal to women through fear (0+ / 0-)

            emotion and tough talk. But you can't. We're the logical ones. We vote Democratic.

            I voted for the human beings.

            by denig on Thu Jan 31, 2013 at 09:02:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  How is empowering women invoking fear? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annecros, FrankRose

              And I vote Democratic too. Just because one disagrees with you on a single policy issue doesn't shuttle that person from the party...sheesh.

            •  I am a woman (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrankRose

              who votes Democrat and works very hard to get Democrats elected.

              I reserve the right to defend myself.

              •  The statistics disagree with you on what actually (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hestal

                works, as defense.  

                ...women everywhere will be happy they can shoot a rapist in the balls and avoid the lifelong nightmares that accompany being taken against their will.
                 

                A ridiculous, emotionally charged, fear-mongering  statement. How does that work exactly? At what point in a rape does the woman get her assault rifle from it's cabinet and shoot some guy in the balls?  Well before the rape, obviously.

                How does that defense work in court?

                The NRA has not logically thought this through. But lack of logic is the NRA hallmark, these days.

                I voted for the human beings.

                by denig on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 06:50:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well I don't have an assault rifle (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  FrankRose

                  They are illegal. Have been since 1937.

                  Self defense is a long standing concept in American Jurisprudence. Usually it doesn't even get to court.

                  I'm not a member of the NRA.

                  Shooting in the balls makes no sense. Aim for the body mass.

                  How does it work in self defense? The rapist stops because he has been shot.

                  •  What NRA talking points do you disagree with? (0+ / 0-)

                    I voted for the human beings.

                    by denig on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:02:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I disagree (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      FrankRose

                      that Universal Background Checks violate the 2nd Amendment.

                      What does that have to do with your insistence that I must be deprived of the ability to defend myself?

                      What does that have to do with your accusation that I own illegal firearms?

                      •  I did not accuse you of owning illegal firearms. (0+ / 0-)

                        Nor did I insist you must be deprived of your right to defend yourself.  

                        You are in favor then, of Universal Background checks? That sounds promising.

                        What about limiting magazine clips?

                        I voted for the human beings.

                        by denig on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:39:09 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Assault rifles are illegal (0+ / 0-)

                          There aren't many women at all that own them, much less "get them out" to confront rapists. Implying that anyone owns them is in fact, accusing people of owning illegal firearms.

                          Sure I'm in favor of background checks. I had one. I had to have one before I could work at my job. It's called being in favor of enforcing existing law! The gun show loophole violates the spirit of the law, not the letter. Easy fix.

                          Magazines or clips? I haven't settle on a number for that yet.

                          So, let's talk about you. What do you have against women defending themselves from rapists?

                          That doesn't sound very promising.

                          •  I have nothing against women defending themselves. (0+ / 0-)

                            I have nothing against you defending yourself.

                            There aren't many women at all that own them, much less "get them out" to confront rapists. Implying that anyone owns them is in fact, accusing people of owning illegal firearms.
                            I've read this three times.  It makes no sense, in light of what I said. I didn't accuse you of owning an illegal weapon.  It's a leap of logic to say I did.

                            You don't appear to want to have an actual discussion and perhaps discover where either of us might be in agreement or a touch over the top. If that's the case, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

                            I voted for the human beings.

                            by denig on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:15:00 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I asked you questions (0+ / 0-)

                            and answered yours. That is actively engaging in discussion.

                            But, as you refuse to listen to others on this issue, as President Obama suggested we do last weekend - see ya later! Have a great Friday!

                    •  Guilt by association (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      annecros

                      Let's try to keep this conversation above logical fallacies, shall we?

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:23:47 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Then don't have a gun. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  annecros, nextstep

                  Neat how freedom works, innit?

                  In the rape scenario, if the person invaded the home, it would work very well in court. In fact it would probably be dismissed as self-defense before it even went to court.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:22:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  LMS - as you know no one aims for the balls (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JoanMar

            Everyone is taught to aim for the chest, more mass and easier to hit. It's nearly impossible to shoot someone in the testicles and using that example just needlessly inflames the discussion.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:15:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Joan - I don't favor a repeal of the 2nd Amendment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annecros, JoanMar

          All I ask is that people working on a repeal take it outside the Democratic Party to the many bipartisan groups who are working on amending or repealing the Second Amendment. Make it bipartisan, so the Democratic Party doesn't take the political hit for your efforts.  

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:13:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  They can't even get (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankRose

        51 votes in the Senate for the AWB.

        •  I know, you have the power now, but (0+ / 0-)

          something like this has happened before. It was called the slave power, and for a long time it worked, but eventually it was obliterated. So it will be with guns. Civilian ownership of guns will go the way of slavery, it will be cast out of our democracy and thrown upon the dung heap of history.

          Things are changing for the better, get used to it.

          Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

          by hestal on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 07:16:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Haven't you gotten the memo yet? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankRose

            Your expectations have already been lowered by Democratic leadership. Perhaps you should catch up.

            It looks like we'll get expanded background checks and armed guards in schools. That's about it.

          •  Eliminating slavery was an expansion of liberty (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annecros, VClib

            AWB is a contraction of liberty.

            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

            by FrankRose on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:25:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  hestal - not in your lifetime (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annecros

            Civilian ownership of guns may be restricted, but will be legal for another 100 years.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 10:17:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You guys are so easy. You just break out (0+ / 0-)

              in a cold sweat whenever you think about your precious guns. 100 years, indeed.What bravado. You are so eager to preserve an amendment that has long outlived any useful purpose without regard to the deaths it has caused for innocents. It is very disturbing to see people who have so little disregard for the lives of others. You should be ashamed of yourself. But, as I said earlier, slavery was very much like the second amendment. Those who love guns would probably have loved being slave masters. The thrill of inducing fear in the hearts of others is more than an addiction, it is a shame and a disgrace.

              Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

              by hestal on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:28:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  hestal - "my precious guns" (0+ / 0-)

                I have never owned a gun and have no plans to own one in the future. But I am a political junkie and understand that gun owners are the largest single issue voting block in the US, and that's not going to change for a very long time. There is a reason that politicians who favor even modest changes in gun control laws go out of their way to state with clarity that they support the right of individuals to own guns. A recent case in point was our President in his remarks on potential new gun control legislation.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:14:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Typical. You uttered not a single word (0+ / 0-)

                  about the deaths of innocents. Why do you and others of your ilk steer away from acknowledging that the second amendment is nothing but permission to murder?

                  Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

                  by hestal on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 03:12:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Maybe because it is not permission to murder (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    notrouble

                    We have laws and harsh penalties against murder, hardly "permission".  Even for those of us who would like to improve the gun control laws acknowledging and understanding the political realities of gun ownership is an important element in gaining whatever legislative remedies are possible in this session of Congress.

                    "let's talk about that"

                    by VClib on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 07:21:56 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Still denying responsibility. Sad... (0+ / 0-)

                      Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

                      by hestal on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 08:09:56 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  hestal - I am in no way responsible for the acts (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        notrouble

                        of others particularly people who commit murder. You can continue to be sad on my behalf, but your sadness has no effect on me. Adults make choices, some are horrific, but I am not putting anyone in danger and feel no responsibility for the act of others.

                        "let's talk about that"

                        by VClib on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 10:43:51 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You don't have to remind me. You have (0+ / 0-)

                          made it very clear that you are irresponsible.

                          Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

                          by hestal on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 11:08:38 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Advocating no private guns is counterproductive (0+ / 0-)

                    When one side overreaches it get less than it could otherwise.

                    Those advocating highly restricted rights to own guns will not only not get what they advocate, they will also prevent important reforms.

                    When anti-gun advocates call for no or little gun rights, the pro-gun forces are helped in their opposition to licensing of gun owners or gun registration, as they argue these measures are just a precursor to confiscation.

                    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                    by nextstep on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 08:29:43 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "When one side overreaches" I (0+ / 0-)

                      wonder which side that is?

                      Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

                      by hestal on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 11:07:26 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not letting you know anything. nt (0+ / 0-)

        Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

        by hestal on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 07:12:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The point is, it doesn't have to be (0+ / 0-)

      There are reasonable limits that can be placed on the sale & possession of weapons and ammo without violating the 2nd Amendment.

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