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View Diary: Israeli Security Chief and Holocaust survivor compares Israel to Nazi Germany (173 comments)

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  •  it's still an unnecessary comparison designed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, livosh1

    to elicit a certain type of politicized emotion.   There are countless examples of occupations that aren't fraught, as the Nazi comparison is.

    •  I think Shalom used that comparison because (4+ / 0-)

      in that case the Jews - specifically Shalom himself - experienced the Holocaust firsthand.

      •  doesn't make it any less offensive. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, Hey338Too

        just because it's a Jew who was persecuted by the Nazis who is making the comparison doesn't make it right--and it doesn't give it any more credence on a site like this.

        •  He wasn't saying they were equivalent though (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WattleBreakfast

          That seems to be what you are implying

          •  he can say whatever he chooses. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too, volleyboy1

            as far as I know he's not on this site.  And so can you.  But you invoke his comments to make a larger ironic point--and you treat his experience as something of a shield, so it's ok to draw these parallels because Shalom, who actually was IN the camps, does so himself.  He is one person, with one view, and that one view doesn't make Israel/Nazi comparisons any more legitimate.

            People use the Israel/Nazi thing around here for politically ironic purposes--and I intend to call it out every time.

            I also call out the knee-jerk equivalences of the U.S. government and fascism.  It's not fascism, but to call it so garners attention and scores political points.

            In this case the false parallel is far worse because you're talking about a direct and recent human tragedy that affects many people PERSONALLY on this site.

            •  Again we aren't talking about equivalencies (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WattleBreakfast

              I'm not going to fight your strawmen

              I also call out the knee-jerk equivalences of the U.S. government and fascism...

              In this case the false parallel is far worse because you're talking about a direct and recent human tragedy that affects many people PERSONALLY on this site.

              And he was personally affected by the Holocaust, and the very point he is making is that Jewish people were affected by the Holocaust and BECAUSE of that we should be vigilant against human rights violators... even among our own kind.  

              The lessons from the Holocaust weren't necessarily to fight oppression only in extreme cases like the Nazis, but in also less extreme forms like the Likud led government.  Oppression should be criticized vehemently whenever it shows its ugly head.

              You clearly do not understand the lessons from the Holocaust, and if you had any sense you would listen to our elders like Shalom who actually went through that terrible time instead of ignorantly bashing those poor souls.

            •  Do you intend to call out Judy Rudoren (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WattleBreakfast

              in the NY Times as well? She also saw fit to mention Nazi Germany in a story just two days ago about an Israeli soccer team's fans being more than distraught at the idea that muslim players were being recruited.

              Some young men had unfurled a banner at the previous game declaring “Beitar pure forever,” which reminded many here of Nazi Germany’s purging of Jews from athletics in 1933 and prompted statewide discussion about racism on and off the field.

              “People in Israel usually try to locate Beitar Jerusalem as some kind of the more extreme fringe; this is a way to overcome the embarrassment,” said Moshe Zimmermann, a historian at Hebrew University who specializes in sports. “The fact is that the Israeli society on the whole is getting more racist, or at least more ethnocentric, and this is an expression.”

              So is she an antisemite for writing that "many" in Israel were "reminded" of "Nazi Germany's purging of Jews..."?

              BTW, making a false accusations of antisemitism is a bannable offense here.

              The best way to prevent abortions is to arm fetuses.

              by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 05:20:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  haven't read it. (0+ / 0-)

                maybe it is, maybe it ain't.  It's not my job to troll through the media and assess each piece.  I'm busy.

                anyway, you'll note the admins have indeed denounced the old tried and true Nazi/Israel comparisons here, but please, feel free to sic the admins on me.

        •  I think the victims of the Holocaust (0+ / 0-)

          would prefer that we recognized the behavior of the early Nazi period before it became the behavior of the later Nazi period.

          And wouldn't we all?

          I would say it is our duty to the victims to stand up and speak if we see anything like the early period of the Nazi movement.

          Before the death camps.  Before the gas chambers.

          If we say it is off limits to ever compare any group to the Nazis at any stage, that means we are absolving their behavior until it is too late.

          Now I would also say it is disturbing that Israel is accused of such behavior more than others.  Much I would assume is anti-semitism.

          But I also think much is due to a lot of people seeing Israel skirting so close to that edge when they should know better from personal experience.  Perhaps that is an unfair burden.

          So the question is, how much validity is there to compare one country's actions (and not only Israel) to the ghetto portion of Nazi Germany?

          If we see it, should we say something.  Does it do honor to the victims to say something or does it dishonor them?

          •  the primary problem with your thinking (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too

            is that you are assuming that overly-agressive responses to perceived security threats in Israel (and I certainly agree they are often extreme) are the precursor to a Nazi-like extermination policy.

            Which is nonsense.  See, you say 'let's do this...before the gas chambers.  Before the death camps'.  But that is not the point of the political right's thinking.  That trajectory is completely false.  

            If there were legitimate historical parallels with the Nazis, that would be one thing.  But there is no relationship here--except for political irony.

            •  OK, that is an intelligent argument (0+ / 0-)

              The factors that led to Nazi Germany and those of Israel are very different.

              But that is accepting that only the conditions that led to Nazi Germany can lead to another Nazi type state.

              That has not been proven.

              But I think I made it clear I wasn't specifying Israel personally.

              I was arguing more against the argument that comparisons to Nazi Germany are inherently always awful and false, and disrespectful to the victims.

              And for the reasons I outlined, I think that is a very big mistake.

              I would rather have a country be falsely accused, perhaps check itself, and have someone make a reasoned argument with specifics as to why the comparison is not the same, rather than having your earlier argument which is just saying any comparison to Nazis is insulting to Nazi victims.

              There is little harm in being overly aggressive with respect to the criticism of any nation's behavior, but as you are aware, there is a huge downside to standing by and not saying anything because it's just not polite.

              Would you not agree?

              •  Israel can (and has been) criticized 6 ways (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hey338Too

                'till Sunday  (including by me)

                in tens of thousands of comments on this site, and everywhere you look.  

                Many of these comments are effective, and tons of them offer valid criticism.

                The ones that offer the least validity to their criticism are the Nazi Germany ones.  Why?  Because the link between Israeli-occupied Gaza/WB and Nuremburg-era Germany is so impossibly weak, the only reason to invoke it is for politically ironic purposes.

                to wit:  'Isn't it ironic that the Jews are turning their own oppression around on another people!  One more step to the gas chambers and the transformation will be complete!'

                That is THE reason why certain commenters try to compare Israel to Nazi Germany.  Not to raise academic awareness-not to draw interesting parallels--no. It is to paint Israel as Nazis to score political points among the virulently anti-Israel left.  And it works.  Just note the number of recommendations that many such comments receive.

                And it's interesting (and noteworthy) that--as a shielf for these comments, most people wouldn't DARE to try to pull that stunt unless they  know they have a Jew--and--even better--a Jew who might have been victimized IN NAZI GERMANY ITSELF--to make that point.

                As a Jew who had my own relatives--many of them--murdered in Nazi-occupied Poland and Lithuania, (albeit before I was born), I find this political ploy to be particularly despicable.

                If a holocaust victim chooses to draw the parallel--as i've said before, that's their prerogative, although the historical connections are extremely weak (except that it's probably the first and most emotional thing that comes to mind).  But to invoke that sort of thing here to score political points is really quite disturbing.

                Hope that helps to explain my point of view.

    •  agree. Since it's from an Israeli though (0+ / 0-)

      I give it more of a pass, also because the statement
      explains that the occupation was the common denominator not atrocities or ultimate morality.

      I am concerned though that the diarist and some others wouldn't or didn't see that difference. I have been so burned by anti Jewish stuff on the left (the blurred line between anti Israel or Zionist or Rigth Wing ISraeli Government and Jewish). Also burned by glee on left whenver an Israeli uses the Nazi term, as if to say "see even they think it's apt".

      I like Kos because I can come here and not feel like I'm living in pre 1940s USA vis a vis some attitudes to Jews unlike, say, Huffington Post.

      Just a moment ago on NPR a pro Hagel left leaning caller said "the Jewish lobby what's wrong with that? APEC and all them  control..."

      Doesn't get that it's the Israel lobby not JEWISH lobby. Sure many of most of them are Jews...but most American Jews are not them. (sigh)

      •  I am guessing AIPAC has quite a few (0+ / 0-)

        Christian supporters. Evangelicals can't wait to bring on the second coming of their Jewish legend.

      •  If that is what you took from my diary (0+ / 0-)

        then you did not read it.  I went out of my way to say there wasn't an equivalency.  

        •  I did read it, but will again (0+ / 0-)

          I did say I was concerned that you wouldn't see the difference but not THAT you were not. And I was concerned that OTHERS would not see the difference

          because that is what often happens on the left though rarely on Kos. People equate Israeli behavior with the Nazi and it goes all the way down. People have said Israeli's are committing genoside (purposeful anhilation of an entire people so they no longer exist on the planet).

          So since that view exists on the left I was concerned this diary would feed that.

          •  What you are saying is that we should censor (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WattleBreakfast

            criticism by Isael's security establishment because some idiots might see an equivalence.

            There is always going to be idiots.  You are just trying to make a lame case for censoring harsh criticism of Israel.

            •  you are putting words into my mouth (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bevenro, volleyboy1

              not cool

              don't care about harsh criticism, care about unfair stuff. Israel is fair game but Nazi and Holocaust affected more than Israelis  to be. It's complicated.

              There is a canard on the left that THE JOOOZ have too much power. I saw it in Occupy in Boston...repeatedly...and had to leave. Even Hagel said "the JEWISH lobby" not the Israel lobby (I'm ok with it if he mispoke). It is NOT the "JEWISH lobby". It is like saying "Muslims are extremists".

              70% or more of Jews are Dems.

              Israel Gov is right wing. Just like how our President Bush and his neocons STARTED AN UNJUST WAR in our name--the ISraeli Gov does lots of stuff that does not stand for all the people of Israel or Israel as a country on the whole, necessary, and especially not for all Jews in the world. I am only making a direct analogy.

              There are a ton of comparisons on the left of Israeli treatment of palistinians being like Nazi and the Holocaust. My Arabl aquaintances (they dont' know I'm Jewish) say it all of the time.

              So when we see a diary like this it just fans that flame. Or at least, I react with suspicion that it is meant too.

              I can't be sure but the diary can be construed as coming from a place as "see even an Israeli thinks Israel is like the Nazi's". As if to shore up SOME on the left's point of view. When actually the statement by the official though meant to be incendiary, carefully compares Nazi OCCUPATION of other countries with Israeli Occupation of Palestinian territory. HE does not compare the treatment of Jews by the Nazi to how the Israelis treat Palestinians. BUT there is a contigent on the left that does it, as do many Arabs. And it is not a fair comparison.

              Context matters. So does intent. ISraelis do not have a genocidal intent for Palestinians and usually try to avoid civilian causalites. Like US in Iraq, though, it just is not possible to fight that kind of war without killing civillians and disrupting their lives. Neither war-waging is justified but neither is comparing Israeli's to NAzi vis a vis genocidal treatement or intent (which is what is common on the left)

              I am no Israel apologists for her ACTIONS.

              •  one of my closest friends was complaining about (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hey338Too

                the "jewish lobby' being annoying as hell yesterday.  I laughed and said she's right--they are.  She was referring to an AIPAC convention--She's hardly anti-Semitic (and I'll use the term myself sometimes) so I'll give it a pass--it's when people have an anti-Jewish agenda that really gets me.  Then there's the fact that the Israel lobby really contains a bunch of Christian Zionists, etc...but that's another issue altogether...

          •  diarist is well aware of this. The title is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too

            designed to stir the pot.  

        •  you really 'went out of your way' with that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1, Hey338Too

          title, didn't you?

          Jplanner's comment:

          Also burned by glee on left whenver an Israeli uses the Nazi term, as if to say "see even they think it's apt".

          is 100% accurate, and you've demonstrated it perfectly.

    •  Frankly, it reminds me most of the European (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catesby

      colonization of the New World (new...as if it hadn't already been inhabited). Native Americans resorted to violence to retain their land, but ended up on smaller and smaller reservations. Each act of violence served to further justify their treatment. After all, they were mere savages (or philistines). Eventually, there were so few left, we non-native Americans, more or less forgot about them. Sadly, history is repeating itself.

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