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  •  not so much (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PSzymeczek

    a handgun is incredibly inaccurate, even in expert hands, when under tension, as one would be in a self defense situation.

    I agree that a shotgun would be the more effective tool, but the recoil is such that for a woman of smaller stature, an AR-15 is likely much better. Besides which, most shotguns are set up to accept fewer shells in the tube than an AR-15 will hold in the magazine and magazines are much easier for reloading (if necessary) than loading individual shells into a shotgun. Particularly if one's hands are shaking, etc.

    •  don't overplay your hand as a n00b, Pete (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PSzymeczek

      overgeneralizing and defending AR-15s anywhere in DK can get you into trouble like in the other diary; handguns are necessary in CQB as you may already know especially in the domestic space hypothetical where you can't get to your shotgun. Besides, everyone should be well trained, even IDPA qualified like some folks in DK

      Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ "We're like a strip club with a million bouncers and no strippers." (HBO's Real Time, January 18, 2013)

      by annieli on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 12:27:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  what is wrong with defending AR-15's??? (0+ / 0-)

        It is a very effective tool and one of the most popular weapons in America. I carry one when I am in the woods around my farm specifically because of its positive characteristics - very effective on coyotes because of my familiarity with the rifle and its target acquisition qualities.

        Handguns on the other hand, as I stated above, are very infeffective even at very close quarters. There is a very good reason police officers often have an AR-15 available although they carry a semi-automatic pistol on their hip.

        •  LOL, nice try but I won't take the bait /nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PSzymeczek

          Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ "We're like a strip club with a million bouncers and no strippers." (HBO's Real Time, January 18, 2013)

          by annieli on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 12:41:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  what bait? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Peace Missile

            Look, I know you don't "know me" (not in a biblical, but in a "community" way - lol), but I dont play games or tricks. I make no apologies for being pro-individual liberties and individual rights. We all dont live in nice gated communities with low crime rates and responsive police departments and thus have to be responsible for the safety of ourselves and our families/property.

            I was raised with guns, learned to shoot them well before I learned to ride a bicycle. The govt put an M16 (military version of the civilian AR-15) in my hands when I was 17 years old. I hesitate to state the following, because I dont mean it to sound braggadocious or intimidating but I will to explain my position and why I feel I can give credible information.

            I shot competitively in the Marine Corps with both rifle and pistol (9mm Barretta) and have placed as high as 5th place in the Eastern Division Matches (open to shooters east of the Mississippi River) with a pistol. I would prefer an AR-15 over a pistol despite my expertise. I hold the military occupational specialty of both Scout/Sniper and Primary Marksmanship Instructor (held, I am no longer active).

            I am here to discuss, share and inform, not to 'bait', my friend.

            •  I'm glad you're more comfortable with an AR-15 (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Urban Owl, a2nite, BlackSheep1, shanikka, drmah

              in your situation. Please note that your situation doesn't generalize as easy especially in the gub-phobic DK as you might think and many of us have different skill sets and preferences for self-defense. Your experience in the earlier diary does suggest a combative(sic) logic that should be tempered as I indicated earlier by more careful reasoning. Note that this serves as today's EOM for you and me

              Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ "We're like a strip club with a million bouncers and no strippers." (HBO's Real Time, January 18, 2013)

              by annieli on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 01:01:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Could you add " listen" (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annieli, shanikka, elfling

              And possibly "learn" to your list?

              A lot of us want to see gun violence reduced, and are familiar with studies concerning guns.

              If you have good ideas for reducing gun violence, great, please post a diary, I will read it with interest.

              I think I am typical at DK in believing a civil discussion does require being open to opinions of others as well as being willing to learn and insisting on real facts, not anecdata.

              We can safely abandon the doctrine of the eighties, namely that the rich were not working because they had too little money, the poor because they had too much. JK Galbraith, 1991

              by Urban Owl on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 01:17:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  our hero here should also remind everyone that (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite, shanikka, drmah, PSzymeczek, elfling

              virtually nobody in the US is killed by a random stranger---the vast majority of murders happen to people who know their attacker.  So that AR-15 he wants you to wave around will, in all odds, be aimed at your boyfriend or husband or neighbor or co-worker, not at some random (probably nonwhite, the home defense fans usually assume) attacker.

              Particularly since nearly every person who breaks into a house actually wants your TV set, not your life.

              Me, I'd offer to help him carry the TV to his car.  There's nothing in my apartment worth anyone dying over--him or me.  Nothing.

            •  I've been shooting since I was 11 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elfling

              At a target range I'd be happy to go up against anyone, shot for shot, any day of the week.

              You are not the only one here who knows guns.  And many of us who know guns just as well as you do, are entirely in favor of restrictions and bannings.

              The simple fact that you apparently don't care what happens to all the bullets from your AR-15 that go through the walls, tells me that (1) you aren't as much an expert as you think you are, and (2) your sense of humanity is really  underwhelming.

              It is precisely because of people like you, that I think most people should not be allowed anywhere near a firearm.

            •  anyway, the AR-15 is plastic overpriced junk. (0+ / 0-)

              If you really want a man-killer that is cheap, sturdy and reliable under all conditions, get an AK-47.

            •  You aren't pro-MY-individual liberties. (0+ / 0-)

              You aren't informing anyone here of anything other than your ideology.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 06:22:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annieli

          You sound an awful lot like this is the philosophy of home defense you subscribe to:

          Seriously.

      •  annieli: second the training (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annieli

        recommendation.
        Ought to apply to every firearm the user ever handles, IMO.
        Individual weapons are different, by design...

        LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

        by BlackSheep1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 02:23:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If only gun manufacturers & baby sling makers (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli, shanikka, colleen, BYw

      ...collaborated to add a space for the shotgun or an AR-15. The baby on her other hip is already crying and the the sound of firing won't last long. Synergy. All we need is synergy between makers of guns, baby slings and carriages and moms can breath easier. I wonder if anyone has tried mounting an AR-15 on the top of a baby swing...

      And I guess all those practices about storing guns unloaded in a locked safe away from children will have to be discarded.

      •  nah, the kid would have to wear ear protection (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kck, shanikka

        but the three-point sling could easily be modified.

        Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ "We're like a strip club with a million bouncers and no strippers." (HBO's Real Time, January 18, 2013)

        by annieli on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 12:32:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  who stops all those AR-15 bullets from (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shanikka, elfling

      going through the walls and killing the nextdoor neighbor?

      •  two words: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shanikka

        Warning - some snark above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ "We're like a strip club with a million bouncers and no strippers." (HBO's Real Time, January 18, 2013)

        by annieli on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 12:39:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  absolutely (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annieli, shanikka, BYw, elfling

          The "blast them with everything" kookers seem to forget that the shooter is responsible, legally as well as morally, for anything that any bullet that is fired does once it leaves the barrel.

          As I noted in another comment a few days ago, I lost most respect for the "home defense" nuts when I went to a gun-owners forum and asked if anyone had any experience firing frangible bullets in a Walther PPK (a pistol that is notoriously famous for jamming with many types of ammo), explaining that I didn't want any bullets to be able to go through my apartment wall and kill my neighbor. At least six people piped up that I shouldn't care what happens to my neighbors since they're probably criminals anyway.

          I bet Pete here thinks the same thing, right Pete?

      •  can you cite any examples... (0+ / 0-)

        of this happening in a home defense situation???

        •  dude, I've seen what AR-15 bullets do to walls (0+ / 0-)

          Don't be an ass.

        •  besides, can YOU cite any examples (0+ / 0-)

          of a mom using an AR-15 to defend against a group of intruders?

        •  Drywall does not stop bullets (0+ / 0-)
          WEST CHICAGO, IL, 1/21/13: A West Chicago man’s honesty and willingness to take responsibility for accidentally firing a pistol whose bullet went through the wall of his friend’s home and damaged a door across the street were factors in authorities’ decision not to seek felony charges. Other factors considered were the shooting was unintended — Studer did not know the gun was loaded when he pulled the trigger.
          (Seattle, 1/23) A man who was playing video games in a fourplex Tuesday night was hit in the back by a bullet that was shot from outside and went through the wall.

          ...
          A King County Sheriff’s Office spokesperson said the bullet traveled from the outside, through the laundry room and other walls before hitting the victim.

          NORWALK (9/14/12) -- A 48-year-old man was arrested Thursday after accidentally discharging a firearm in a Fair Street apartment complex and sending a bullet through his neighbor's wall, police said.
          (7/25/2011) HOUSTON – A 14-year-old boy was shot in the stomach as he slept in his bed early Monday morning, police said.
          It happened around 2 a.m. at the Gables apartments on Ocee at Pagewood.
          According to police, a neighbor’s gun accidentally fired as he was putting it away, and the bullet went through the wall into the boy’s room.
          The boy was rushed to the hospital, but police said he’s expected to survive.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 09:48:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Please study works by Ayoob and the like (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli, shanikka

      If you ever consider adding a gun to your home security plan please learn why a rifle of any kind is a terrible idea.

      •  Dogs are fuzzy: not so much with the .22 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annieli

        if you get rat shot / bird shot shotshells for it. Much less penetration beyond the intended target. Also, bigger hole, generally speaking, in same than the rifle shell would produce...

        LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

        by BlackSheep1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 02:28:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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