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View Diary: Two years after hunting was legalized half the wolves are gone (263 comments)

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  •  I get the need to kill the occasional problem wolf (3+ / 0-)

    Just like the need to kill the occasional problem bear or big cat. But what kind of sick fuck actually looks forward to and enjoys killing a wolf, which is basically a pre-domesticated dog (all dogs are descended from wolves), that has not caused any problems but simply represents a "cullable" member of a mostly non-problem species? Who DOES that?

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:17:45 PM PST

    •  First the wolf is much smarter than anyones dog (0+ / 0-)

      much bigger brain. Dogs are dumb. If you can understand rats becoming too numerous and being a problem you are half way to understanding the problems in the midwest and west.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 08:47:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're comparing wolves to rats? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic, Kevskos

        Or complaining that wolves' brains are too big so we should kill them? Not sure what your point is actually in terms of killing them.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Fri Feb 01, 2013 at 09:38:25 PM PST

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        •  Yes wolves are very smart. It's a scientific fact. (0+ / 0-)

          comparing them to dogs is not a great comparison because though they are the same species one is now very different, the dog is a domestic. Many don't get that, they think killing wolves is killing their dog.

          The reason to kill wolves is the same as to kill any animal not for food. There are more than the human population wants. Just like rats.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 06:15:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What about what THEY want? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kevskos

            Like, to be left alone and not killed? Why are our wants more important than theirs? And how is killing an apex species in large numbers good and sound environmental policy? You'd think the smarter the species, the more we'd want to protect it, for all sorts of reasons.

            And comparing them to dogs was about appealing to our humanity, since we love dogs and only the creepiest of creeps would want to hunt them.

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 06:34:00 AM PST

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            •  actually humans are the apex predator (0+ / 0-)

              and of all the predators only humans can carefully manage their own predation such that we preserve healthy populations of all species. If we were normal predators we'd wipe out all other predators, it's a natural thing to do.

              Humans in the US often attach themselves to dogs as if the dogs were human. That's why making comparisons to wolves and other mammals is difficult. People, particularly in the US are very disconnected from the natural world.

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 07:04:11 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  If we were normal predators (0+ / 0-)

                Then we would only kill what we needed to eat, not for "sport", or for lifestyle reasons, or to save our cash livestock, or animals we probably shouldn't be eating, at least in the quantities we do. And we're not the native apex species in this region. Even native peoples knew that and lived in balance with other, native species, apex or not. This policy is just whacked.

                "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                by kovie on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 07:13:44 AM PST

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                •  You should study predators sometime (0+ / 0-)

                  just get a good book or wiki or something. heck watch a cat. Predators love killing things. Native Americans wiped out half or more of the large mammals.

                  Before you can begin to understand the policy, first you need to understand wildlife. Not the tales told at Howling for the Heck of it, but fact based basic biology.

                  How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                  by ban nock on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 01:48:04 PM PST

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                  •  My sister's cat used to love to kill small birds (0+ / 0-)

                    so I know about that. But until advanced man came along, things more or less stayed in balance. For all their efforts, cats haven't killed off sparrows. Ok, so maybe native peoples wiped out the mastedon and saber tooth tiger. MAYBE. The jury's still out on that. But it was white men with rifles who nearly killed off the bison, not natives. And it's white men with rifles who now want to kill off wolves. In both cases, for really dumb reasons.

                    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                    by kovie on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 02:18:49 PM PST

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          •  Rats (0+ / 0-)

            are not apex predators.

      •  You keep talking about the problems (4+ / 0-)

        and yet never seem to actually quantify what they are.

        Danger to people?

        Danger to pets?

        Danger to livestock?

        Lowering the game population for hunters?

        Just what are we supposed to be afraid of with an increasing wolf population?

        •  He's an elk hunter (3+ / 0-)

          Wolves are competition.

          “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

          by ivorybill on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 01:10:27 AM PST

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        •  They've wreaked a lot of harm on large ungulate (0+ / 0-)

          populations across the northern rockies. This is in no way news. Largest migrating elk herd in the world down 75%. Unless you only one sort of media source this is not a secret.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 06:17:47 AM PST

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          •  Unchecked large ungulates (0+ / 0-)

            were wrecking their environments, generally by overfeeding.

            http://www.nps.gov/...

            Now they seem to be approaching historically sustained levels:

            http://www.spokesman.com/...

            So, what exactly is the problem?

            Personally, I think here in NJ we could do with some further reduction for our large ungulates considering how much damage they do when hit by a car.

            75% reduction in deer/elk nationally would save about 150 lives a year from a reduction in auto accidents. What price tag would you put on that?

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