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View Diary: WITNESS: The Brutal Asymmetry of the Israeli Occupation as Soldiers Pepper Spray Seated Villagers (180 comments)

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  •  This is awful (6+ / 0-)

    I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, but not this kind of brutality. Israel needs to pull out of the West Bank.

    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

    by Noisy Democrat on Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 09:46:55 PM PST

    •  What does this mean? (8+ / 0-)
      I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state
      What happens if natural demographic trends result in Israel no longer having a Jewish majority?

      "I have often seen people uncivil by too much civility, and tiresome in their courtesy." Michel de Montaigne

      by JesseCW on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 02:29:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't have a solution for everything (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tom Anderson, elwior, Emmy, kyril

        I think the Jews have a right to their historic homeland, just as Tibetans have a right to theirs. I don't know how the Tibetans, if they ever get to return, will work things out with the ethnic Chinese who have been moving in, and I don't know the best way to work things out for Israel either. But creating a Palestinian state seems like a positive step forward.

        Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

        by Noisy Democrat on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 11:42:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But the Palestinians don't? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fire bad tree pretty, elwior, poco

          Because you do realize that they are being kept from their land as it has been annexed by Israel.

          The only way that Israel can be majority Jewish and exist on the specific territory it exists on is through ethnic cleansing.  Israel as it exists now is the result of ethnic cleansing and that ethnic cleansing continues to this day.

          •  I said that a Palestinian state (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior, AoT

            needs to be established. The original partition plan created two states. Even though the Arabs rejected that plan back in 1948, it isn't too late to go for a two-state solution. But Israel needs to dismantle the settlements.

            Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

            by Noisy Democrat on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:48:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The partition plan (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, JesseCW, poco

              denied the rights of the Palestinians to to self-determination. Palestinian Muslims and Christians were a majority in the 1940s and yet the minority Jews were given half the land. Of course it was rejected. And it was only accepted by Ben Gurion not because it was acceptable but because they had plans to to acquire more.

            •  Yeah. I figured that was what was underneath (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fire bad tree pretty

              your comment.

              Not surprised.

              Israeli Terrorists murdered UN representatives, including one who had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps, until they got the lopsided plan they wanted.

              Why should 2/3rds of the population have accepted a plan they had no part in creating, which gave more than half their land to 1/3rd of the population?

              Not quietly accepting theft is, in your mind, so unreasonable as to justify further theft?

              There is no possibility of a vote held prior to the massive ethnic cleansing carried out in 1948/49 resulting in the "Jewish State" you believe has a right to exist - a right that we can now see you consider superior to all other rights.

                When the majority rejects a plan in a (d)emocracy - what is supposed to happen?

              "I have often seen people uncivil by too much civility, and tiresome in their courtesy." Michel de Montaigne

              by JesseCW on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 01:04:00 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Earlier, they rejected the Peel Plan (0+ / 0-)

                which would have given a much smaller amount of land to the Jews. Anyway, it's clear we're not going to convince each other. I believe in a two-state solution. Israel needs to give up the West Bank. If you want Israel to just go away, I don't agree. That's all.

                Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                by Noisy Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 05:40:54 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're operating from the starting position that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Fire bad tree pretty

                  Palestinians were obligated to give away some substantial part of their land.

                  You don't care whether or not the majority of the people in Palestine were ok with this.  

                  This is profoundly anti (small d) democratic.  It's a 19th century view of the world which holds that anybody not building battleships or steam engines simply isn't entitled to self determination.

                  Thank you for answering my question concerning what you believe ought to happen if current demographic trends continue and Jews become a minority inside the state of Israel.

                  Evidently, you want the same thing that happened last time this was the case.  A "solution" that disregards of the concepts of self governance and equality.

                  "I have often seen people uncivil by too much civility, and tiresome in their courtesy." Michel de Montaigne

                  by JesseCW on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 06:04:03 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I told you I don't know (0+ / 0-)

                    I also don't know what the ethnic Chinese who've been moving into Tibet should do if the Tibetans ever manage to get independence. I don't have solutions for all these kinds of problems.

                    I do believe that the Jewish nation, like any other nation, has a reasonable right to a homeland. So do the Palestinians.

                    What do you propose Israel should do?

                    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                    by Noisy Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 07:13:58 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  It's not what Israel needs to do, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gzodik, elwior

      it's what the USA needs to do.

    •  I don't (6+ / 0-)

      I think they should just exist as a . . . . state.  

      It is obvious the ethnic cleansing stems directly from the eliminationist premise of Israel's founding.

      I think that is the biggest single problem here.

      •  Exactly (3+ / 0-)

        They founded an ethnic based state on land were people of a different ethnicity already lived.  There's no way that ends up working out well.

        •  It may get difficult if (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior

          the Tibetans ever get to take back Tibet, too. Or if Native Americans reclaim land where white people are living. But it seems as if a two-state solution would be a step forward.

          Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

          by Noisy Democrat on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:50:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, in practical terms (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior

            Israel isn't going to go away.  That doesn't make their history any less racist and full of ethnic cleansing.  Nor does the fact that Native Americans will never have the power to take back their old lands make us pushing them off of them any less racist and horrible.

            But it seems as if a two-state solution would be a step forward.
            And that looks more and more unlikely every day.  Israel is on a slow march to the realization of so called Greater Israel and a hell of a lot of people are in denial about that fact.

            Israel was founded on stolen land, as was the US.  The Palestinians are just in a position to fight back, unlike the Native Americans.

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