Skip to main content

View Diary: WITNESS: The Brutal Asymmetry of the Israeli Occupation as Soldiers Pepper Spray Seated Villagers (180 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Hr d (11+ / 0-)

    The final solution you allude to is not a joking matter.

    And if it wasn't an off color joke then I don't know what to say about it.

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi

    by ProgressiveTokyo on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 04:59:30 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe so. (9+ / 1-)

      But can you tell me with 100% surety that none of the right wingers in Israel haven't talked about such things behind closed doors?

      I'd bet my last dollar they have.  

      *The administration has done virtually nothing designed to reward its partisans. - Kos 8/31/10*

      by Rick Aucoin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:37:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps yes, perhaps no. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior, poco, too many people

        It's irrelevant, given that Nazi analogies are off-limits on Daily Kos.  If you want to discuss how far-right Israeli politicians are potentially viewing the Palestinians, I'm all for that, but there are many ways to do so besides using Nazi analogies, which are highly inflammatory and really not accurate unless you have evidence that far-right Israelis want to put Palestinians on trains and send them to death camps.

      •  Only a few very sick people have contemplated (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior, hester, livosh1

        that.

        Is there racism there? Just as there is an amazing amount of racism on the Palestinian side. The sides don't like each other. Really not that hard to figure out. Anyway is there racism in Israel? Oh yeah - in droves on the Right. But aside from some of the real crazies I have never seen any mainstream or even Hard Rightist advocate for the extermination of the Palestinian People.

        I KNOW people that are Hard Right and NONE of those people have talked about a anything resembling the Nazi "Final Solution".

        SO you get donutted for that comment because you know nothing of what the Israeli Rightists are saying and ascribing to them the motives of Nazi's is truly sickening.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 12:50:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because forced sterilization (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior, poco, Rick Aucoin, alain2112, Anorish

          of Ethiopian Jews isn't racism.  Neither is the casual abuse of Arabs by police in Israel.  Not to mention the folks that went through and smashed all the shop windows of imigrants last year.

          Not comparable to the Nazis though, in that you're right.  Israel isn't trying to exterminate Palestinians, just run them off their land.

          •  Ummm reading is fun-da-mental (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior, livosh1

            You know I am not trying to be an ass.. but, I did say this in the comment you are responding too..

            Anyway is there racism in Israel? Oh yeah - in droves on the Right.
            BUT any alleged sterilization was halted also by the GOI. I would love to see a discussion on that in Haaretz or an Israeli paper.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 02:43:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "On the right" (4+ / 0-)

              means by the government when the right is in control of the government.  

              Why is it that you treat the Palestinians as if they are a single unitary group with no differences even though they don't really even have representation and you claim that Israel is a soooper diverse place and you can blame the country for what the right does, even though the right is the government. I mean, not everyone in Hamas fires rockets, I'm sure you're jumping on the bandwagon to defend the people in Hamas who don't do that and point out that we shouldn't blame them.  Support for a racist state is racism.

              •  No you will never see me support "diversity" in (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hester, livosh1

                Hamas until that charter is eliminated. You sign on to Hamas, you sign on to that Charter.

                There is a lot of diversity in the Palestinian Political order of things but no in Hamas (who btw are NOT the rulers of the Palestinian Government).

                Support for a racist state is racism.

                And if Israel was a racist state I would not support them. BUT speaking of racist states, both the P.A. AND Hamas are extremely racist. How do you square your support for the Palestinian Polity that votes for them with your commentary against Israel?

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 03:07:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So Israe isn't racist, it just does racist things (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  elwior, Asak, Anorish, Rick Aucoin

                  because racists are in charge.

                  That's rather convenient word usage.

                  •  So in other words you can't square (0+ / 0-)

                    your support for the Palestinian Polity with your ideals regarding racism? That was the question I asked.

                    As for Israel, It is not a racist state. There are some racists in power there but not everyone in the government is racist NOR is the state structure itself racist.

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 10:14:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I support people not being oppressed (0+ / 0-)

                      And not being ethnically cleansed, regardless of who they elect.  Hamas is antisemitic, yes, as are a huge number of people who Israel ethnically cleansed.  And this sort of false equivalence is absurd. Hamas won an election because they are clearly resisting the actions of Israel in a way that seems effective, not because they are racist.  The same is not true of Likud and the far right parties.  They get elected because of anti-arab racism in Israel.

                      •  NO it is not false equivalence at all (0+ / 0-)

                        It is a factual. The Palestinian Polity voted racists in either in the P.A. OR Hamas. These are the people that would run Palestine and are the pseudo governments in the meanwhile.

                        Palestinians voted for Hamas for a number of reasons and a lot more of it was because of P.A. corruption and Hamas social services, as well as a conservative religious philosophy.

                        But be that as it may, both the P.A. and Hamas are racist to the core. You seem to have no problem with that. Why is that?

                        As for Israel this...

                        The same is not true of Likud and the far right parties.  They get elected because of anti-arab racism in Israel.

                        is nonsense.

                        People voted for Likud-Beitanu, HaBayit HaYehudi and the Ultra Religious parties for a variety of reasons but racism was NOT the reason for that. They voted for these folks because of security issues, or because they supported the Settlements, or for religious reasons. Racism, while it does exist in those parties is NOT a reason for their existence and the fact that you think it is, is telling regarding your knowledge of Israel and this conflict.

                        Now there is a racist party in Israel - "Otzma L'Yisrael" (Strong Israel). They are a party people who make race an issue. Otzma L'Yisrael (run by ex-Kahanists) did not cross the electoral threshold and have no part in the Israeli Government.

                        You should really get this shit straight before making comments like that.

                        OH and there is no excuse for racism in any form, because when you say things like:

                        Hamas is antisemitic, yes, as are a huge number of people who Israel ethnically cleansed.
                        First of all, I don't accept that Israel did any wholesale ethnic cleansing.

                        Second, That is just an excuse... If that were the case then Jews should have every reason to be racist to both Arabs and everyone else for the way they were treated for the last 2500 years.

                        HOWEVER, as I tell those idiots at another blog who believe just that (as you are seeming to justify), that racism and hatred is an incredibly stupid thing and that there is no justification for it in any way shape or form.

                        Third, People in that region were anti-Semitic long before Israel even existed or any alleged ethnic cleansing took place.

                        SO you might not like people being oppressed (and I don't either) but you may want to take a look at the side you are supporting and making excuses for, because given .01% chance they would making the Occupation look like a picnic in the park. And who do you REALLY think is going to run the Palestinian Polity going forward, some young bloggers and Pro-Democracy activists?

                        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                        by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 02:58:00 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Racism (0+ / 0-)
                          They voted for these folks because of security issues, or because they supported the Settlements, or for religious reasons.
                          Yeah, I don't think you understand what racism actually is.
                          SO you might not like people being oppressed (and I don't either) but you may want to take a look at the side you are supporting and making excuses for, because given .01% chance they would making the Occupation look like a picnic in the park. And who do you REALLY think is going to run the Palestinian Polity going forward, some young bloggers and Pro-Democracy activists?
                          Build up the boogeyman and then complain about how horrible they are.  Yay for perpetual war!

                          Israel has been slaughtering civilians for too long, and folks like you have been apologizing for too long.  This is slow motion colonization and both you and I know it's going to end with a Greater Israel stretching from the Jordan to the sea.  You can protest all you want, but when you look at the maps you see that Israel has never stopped expanding, and nothing is going to stop them.  I doubt they'll wipe out the Palestinians, but they'll certainly kick them out of the west bank, and probably out of Israel proper once the hard right finally takes over, once the left refuses to have anything to do with ethnic cleansing and abandons the state.

                          I don't claim to have an answer, but you shoot down anything that might do anything.  Probably against BDS as well, because it isn't no-violent enough.

                          But rail against how horrible the natives are all you want.  Colonization is colonization.

                          •  Heh... I know exactly what "Racism" is... (0+ / 0-)

                            having been victimized by "anti-Semitism" a number of times, I think I have an idea of what the word means in real terms.

                            It is you my friend who doesn't seem to understand what Racism is.

                            Israel has been slaughtering civilians for too long, and folks like you have been apologizing for too long.
                            Who is apologizing for anything? Israel does a far better job NOT causing civilian casualties than any of it's neighbors do. Oh and before you pull out your little chart of civilian casualties in Israelis vs. Palestinians... you might remember the fact that the only reason that the numbers are what they are is not due in part to a lack of Palestinian's trying. They just simply can't execute their strategy. Your myopia on this is pretty amazing though.
                            This is slow motion colonization and both you and I know it's going to end with a Greater Israel stretching from the Jordan to the sea.
                            I am not willing to concede that point quite yet - but it disturbs me as well. But at the same time you decry that, you have to admit that you know that the Palestinians if given their chance will do the same thing except a lot faster and with a lot more brutality. OH and if you doubt me, then please show me the Palestinian leader that has gone public with a negotiation point giving up Palestinian Right of Return.

                            Yes, Yes, I know Abbas discussed that but he never took that back to the people who overwhelmingly would have shot that idea down first and then shot Abbas for agreeing to it.

                            This:

                            I doubt they'll wipe out the Palestinians, but they'll certainly kick them out of the west bank, and probably out of Israel proper once the hard right finally takes over, once the left refuses to have anything to do with ethnic cleansing and abandons the state.
                            The only party that advocated tossing the Palestinians out of the West Bank was Otzma L'Yisrael and you might notice that they didn't even cross the 2% of the vote electoral threshold. Kind of hard to take over when you can't even get one seat in the Knesset.

                            And stories about the Left leaving might be big on some websites but so far it is not particularly happening outside of a few isolated cases. Most of the "Yerida" (leaving) is over economic matters...

                            You say you don't have an answer but you certainly willing to advocate on behalf of Israel's enemies. Why should I respect that. If you don't have an answer then don't advocate one way or the other.

                            Probably against BDS as well, because it isn't no-violent enough.
                            Hell yeah, I am against BDS. It is an anti-Semitic ploy to destroy the Jewish State. Why the fuck would I support that??? What do I think should happen? If there is to be Peace.. I think the Palestinians need to say "Ok we accept Israel's existence as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish People, and we will sign a full on peace treaty  along the lines of the Olmert Plan from 2007". I think the Israelis need stop their continued construction and enlist the U.S. and E.U. in a diplomatic effort to accept that should the Palestinians say that.

                            If they Palestinians can't do that, then they will be shit out of luck because the Israelis are under no compunction to commit national suicide. Nor should they. If the Palestinians refuse... Israel simply needs to do what it must to protect it's people (both Arab and Jewish).

                            Oh don't take that to mean I support the Occupation, I don't. I believe the Palestinians should have a homeland in part of the area between the Jordan and the Med.  I think Israel can make territorial adjustments that would maintain it's security and still give the Palestinians a reasonable homeland.

                            As for "railing at the Natives". Not at all... Jews are native to the Israel region. But I am not "railing at the Natives", I am railing at racism, and honestly I don't give a fuck where it comes from. It's wrong. You either support it or you don't. Period.

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 04:11:04 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Honestly (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't know why we bother with these conversation.

                            Oh don't take that to mean I support the Occupation, I don't. I believe the Palestinians should have a homeland in part of the area between the Jordan and the Med.  I think Israel can make territorial adjustments that would maintain it's security and still give the Palestinians a reasonable homeland.
                            You say that but you always put it on the Palestinians.  As if them saying one thing would make everything change.  Israel doesn't accept them as a state, so why should they accept Israel?  The difference of course being that Israel actually has a state while the Palestinians don't.  They were ethnically cleansed and abused ever since.  But really, it's just a couple of words that's the problem.  It isn't the fact that there's a colonial nation slowly annexing land.

                            Really, I doubt the government on Israel feels the same as you do, given their actions.  I fully expect a one state solution regardless of whether Palestinians "recognize" Israel.

                          •  Yeah I do put it on the Palestinians (more their (0+ / 0-)

                            leadership) for the most part - you know why? Because they are the ones that have never accepted the existence of Israel as the National State and Homeland of the Jewish people. Sure the P.A. says they accept the Two State Solution but they won't renounce Palestinian Right of Return which would in effect cause the end of Israel as it was created to be. They give up nothing by accepting Two States and also demanding Palestinian R.O.R. as you would have a Palestinian State called "Palestine" and then you would have a majority Palestinian State called "Israel", and how long would Israel exist in that situation. I would give it 5-10 minutes. So really... lets be honest about what we are talking about shall we?

                            Israel doesn't accept them as a state, so why should they accept Israel?
                            Israel has made them a ton of offers that the Palestinians have walked on. AND Israel ACCEPTED a Palestinian State next to it in the Mandate - the Palestinians refused it. That is historical fact.

                            And to answer your question - they don't have to accept Israel as a State - that is up to them, but then it's tough shit if they have an issue with Israel. The Israelis are under no obligation to people that want them to not exist. Life is like that. You can't always get what you want.

                            The difference of course being that Israel actually has a state while the Palestinians don't.
                            Whose fault is that? It sure isn't the Israelis.
                            They were ethnically cleansed and abused ever since.  But really, it's just a couple of words that's the problem.  It isn't the fact that there's a colonial nation slowly annexing land.
                            And more Jews were really ethnically cleansed from Arab nations than Palestinians from Israel. The difference; Israel took in the Jews that were ethnically cleansed, the Palestinians were hung out to dry by their "brothers" in the Arab World.

                            AND.. if it's just a "matter of a couple of words" then why don't the Palestinians simply say them? Why won't they put that in writing? Why don't you simply come out and say them? I will tell you why - because those words have real meaning and that meaning translates into action and reality and that is action and reality which you don't like.

                            Really, I doubt the government on Israel feels the same as you do, given their actions.  I fully expect a one state solution regardless of whether Palestinians "recognize" Israel.
                            I don't really know about that. I know the majority of Israeli people support a Two State Solution. I will grant you that elements of the GOI seems to be moving to a One State solution no matter what the Palestinians do, but that NO ONE in the Palestinian polity accepts a true State solution either... SO... Oh well.

                            OH and btw, the P.A. (and PLO in general) has "recognized" Israel, but under the conditions above. If they formally renounce Palestinian R.O.R. and still recognize Israel, then we have something to talk about. If not, then there really is nothing there.

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 05:03:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They reject ethnic cleansing (0+ / 0-)

                            so it's their fault.  Even though they accept the two state solution, which is what you asked for.  This is why there will not be a two state solution, because it isn't good enough for Palestine to accept a two state solution, they must fully capitulate before negotiations begin.  Until they stay ethnically cleansed there is no deal.  Beautiful thing to build a Jewish homeland on.

                            Of course, their use of violence is the only thing that's ever given them any leverage at all, and that's just a further excuse for ethnic cleansing.  Israel probably won't make it all the way from the Jordan to the sea in my lifetime, but it'll happen.  They have nuclear weapons, there's nothing stopping them.  Why would they stop when they're clearly winning?  And that's not an indictment of Israel per se, that's how this shit works.  If the US hadn't taken such a hit in Afghanistan and even more so Iraq you can bet that we'd have rolled into Iran by now.

                            Maybe I'm just cynical in my "old" age, but none of these governments have an interest in peace, and they can always whip up a threat to rile people up into war.

    •  It's not a joke (10+ / 0-)

      When the history of this era is written, Israel's inhuman behavior is going to look very, very unflattering and what they are doing is clearly, pointedly, and inexcusably ethnic cleansing.

      •  Yes, but they're not putting Palestinians (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior, poco, AoT, too many people, hester

        on trains to death camps, which is what the final solution was.  And Nazi analogies are explicitly forbidden here.

        •  how the fuck bad does it have to get (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          Seriously?

          Israel's policies are blatantly racist and apartheid, and their activities are pointedly eliminationist.  Do you want to wait for it to get insanely worse before someone says hey, this actually is ethnic cleansing and apartheid government and there is no happy conclusion at the end of that path!!

          And Nazi analogies are explicitly forbidden here.
           Well, I guess one way you can avoid talking about ethnic cleansing is to ban talking about the most infamous ethnic cleanser on the market.
          •  Did I say anything about the terms (0+ / 0-)

            "ethnic cleansing" or "apartheid government?" No.  What I said, very specifically, was about the term "final solution" that you initially uprated and which spawned this whole subthread.  That's a Nazi analogy, and whether you like it or not, those have been specifically banned by Markos.  So if you want to stick around, that's the rule.

            And you know what?  I agree with it.  And I say this as a Jew who is highly critical of Israeli policies and actions and has no problem with either the term "ethnic cleansing" or "apartheid government," although I think both terms need to be used appropriately and carefully.

            But there are different forms of ethnic cleansing.  What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is a crime, a major crime, but it is not putting Palestinians on trains and sending them to death camps, which is what the final solution was.  So if you want to criticize what Israel is doing, you'll get no argument from me.  But I think it's important that we be accurate in our terminology, and for you to realize that using Nazi analogies is not only HRable but, because of that rule and its super highly inflammatory quality, those analogies end up taking the attention away from what Israel is doing to the Palestinians and putting it all on language.  I'd rather keep the attention on the former part of that previous sentence.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site