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View Diary: BACKFIRE: How the GOP Screwed Themselves by Blocking Susan Rice (198 comments)

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  •  Some people are willing to cede the construction (17+ / 0-)

    of the pipeline but fight the tarsands until the combination of cheap renewables and the forcing of the accounting for the true cost of the tar sands makes them economically unviable.

    At least, that's the only excuse I have available for them.

    I personally would keep fighting the use of eminent domain for the pipeline and would keep fighting the pipeline, but we should also be forcing a true accounting of the cost of the resource.
    Ultimately we need to kill it economically

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 10:51:13 AM PST

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    •  There's also time enough to let reality (21+ / 0-)

      win.  A head-on battle never results in a win for the good guys.  The Media promotes the lies endlessly.  It takes a few years for the truth to take hold.  Most of the construction jobs will go to Canadians who have built for Keystone in the past.  All the oil/gas will be exported.

       We'll win 2 things for Murrica- the air pollution from refineries and oil leaking into the water table.  Until a majority of citizens get that, the Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! lies control the story.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 11:21:26 AM PST

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      •  I'm reccing in spite of the forin spelling of (7+ / 0-)

        Murka.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 01:39:51 PM PST

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      •  Keystone Tar (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LSmith

        keystone Tar was slated for export via the golf coast all along.  It still will be exported, but transport to a port will be on Canadian soil, not across the breadbasket of America.  The mid-west refineries will still be land-locked -- without access to shipping ports --  and the Koch Billionaires will have to settle for less profit on their products from those refineries.

        •  Strangely enough (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior, PinHole, Losty

          jaguarpete, I certainly hoped that Keystone XL is never approved.

          The idea of transporting the bitumen across Canada has run into trouble. Nobody seems to want the pipelines except Alberta, which is trying to get people in other provinces to agree to it.

          •  I haven't been close to Canadian politics lately - (0+ / 0-)

            but is there an appetite or legal capability for Parliament to shove it down the throat of BC and ship out of Port Metro Vancouver?  I've been pretty surprised that Harper and his prairie rednecks haven't been turfed yet but Canadians keep voting for the creep.

            "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

            by auron renouille on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 05:29:55 PM PST

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            •  That would be pretty expensive (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              True North

              The Rocky Mountains are in the way. You'd have to haul the pipeline up and down them big ol' hills before it got to Vancouver. I'm not an expert in the physics of pumping oil, but I can't imagine that running a pipeline up and over the Rockies would be as cost-effective as running it acrossa the relatively flat Great Plains.

              The only alternative I can think of would be to run the pipeline north through Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Ontario and/or Nunavut and ship the oil out of Hudson Bay. Even if climate change makes navigating Hudson Bay year round feasible, I doubt there are port and/or refinery facilities on Hudson Bay to handle the crude, and certainly nothing like you would get in Vancouver.

              If you can't say anything nice about the GOP, please post here more often.

              by Omir the Storyteller on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 01:18:21 AM PST

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              •  Plus, the pipe would have to go through (3+ / 0-)
                The Rocky Mountains are in the way. You'd have to haul the pipeline up and down them big ol' hills before it got to Vancouver.
                an Indian reservation.  Canadian Indians have more clout than U.S. Indians, and they are fighting the idea tooth and nail.  

                Renewable energy brings national global security.     

                by Calamity Jean on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 07:11:50 PM PST

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              •  Northern Gateway (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Omir the Storyteller

                Enbridge is the company behind Northern Gateway, a pipeline that will take oil from the tarsands to Vancouver, as I understand it.

                There is a federal review panel doing hearings now. The First Nations groups and many other people are appearing and objecting.

                However, as I understand it, Stephen Harper's Conservative government has (or soon will) amend legislation to weaken environmental protection and to put the decision on a pipeline like this one into the hands of the minister. (Harper is an Alberta MP, incidentally, so definitely a pro-tarsands kind of guy.)

                Enbridge certainly hoped to get First Nations people to buy into this and give their consent, but it seems to me that the Harper government is setting things up to push it through whether anybody in BC likes it or not.

                There won't be another election until 2015, which seems like a long, long, time away.

              •  Rocky Mountains (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Omir the Storyteller

                Sorry, I think I was wrong in my earlier comment about the destination of the pipeline that would carry the bitumen. It starts near Edmonton and ends in Kitimat, BC, where the plan is to build a terminal with tanker berths.

                Enbridge plans to build tunnels through the Coast Mountains. It looks to me like the route is north of of the Rocky Mountains.

              •  Hrm, yeah, guess all I was thinking was the (0+ / 0-)

                Cascades/Coast Range, which have a decent tame spot around northeast of Blaine and the US/Canadian border; it's where much of Washington's agriculture is.  But silly me, I hadn't thought of the Rockies.  That known, they could almost ship out of the Great Lakes just as easily.

                Regardless, point well taken; it's a lot harder than it looks from Google Maps.

                "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

                by auron renouille on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 12:12:20 AM PST

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            •  About turfing out Harper (0+ / 0-)

              Next election isn't until 2015.

              The NDP has a new leader and the Liberals are just choosing their new leader.

              Harper and his crowd are too far right--in my opinion--but the more center and left voters are dividing up their votes between NDP, Liberals, and Green, making it possible for the Conservatives to get the most votes in a riding even when they are nowhere near a majority.

              The parties need to work on this issue: not necessarily join together, but figure out some strategy so that more not-Conservative candidates are elected.

      •  actually ... (0+ / 0-)

        also increased oil prices in the Midwest and, overall, a weaker US economy.  Oil would become world price rather than discounted in the upper Midwest.  Keystone XL is a way to increase profitability (and thus support expand production) of Tar Sands oil extraction, enriching the fossil fuel industry by picking Americans' pockets.

        Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

        by A Siegel on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 03:38:01 AM PST

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    •  Right about accounting for the cost, David54 (4+ / 0-)

      In fact, we should be doing a much better job of accounting for the total cost of using fossil fuels of all kinds. And, the number of jobs some investors claim would be created by the pipeline is pure malarky.

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