Skip to main content

View Diary: SoCal preschool closes due to sexual activity between students (67 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Abuse? or Experimentation? (8+ / 0-)

    A recent case in Texas between an 11 year old boy forced a 7 year old boy in the neighborhood to perform oral sex on him.  Was it abuse or experimentation?

    The families knew each other, all the neighborhood boys played together - eventually, the mother let it go.

    According to the article, this "reflects society's confusion and shame about childhood sexuality and its reluctance to acknowledge that juveniles can be sexual abusers. It is also illegal, since [Texas] state law requires that child abuse be reported, regardless of the age of the abuser.

    Letting such an incident go carries a big price for both children. The victim is likely to experience serious emotional repercussions that affect self-esteem and behavior. The offender experiences no consequences and is likely to abuse again."

    Normal behavior for young children and pre-adolescents includes:

    Conversation about genitals or reproduction with peers or siblings of similar age

    Playing ""doctor''

    Dirty words or jokes within peer norm

    Occasional masturbation without penetration

    Examples of yellow-flag behavior include:

    Precocious sexual knowledge

    Attempting to expose others' genitals

    Preoccupation with masturbation

    Simulating foreplay with dolls

    Mutual or group masturbation

    Evidence of more serious disturbance are these red-flag behaviors:

    Touching genitals of others

    Degradation or humiliation of self or others with sexual themes

    Compulsive masturbation

    Inducing fear or threats of force

    Simulating intercourse with dolls, peers, animals

    Behavior that is unquestionably abusive or evidence of severe problems includes:

    Oral, vaginal, anal penetration of dolls, children, animals

    Forced touching of genitals

    Simulating intercourse with peers with clothing off

    Any genital injury or bleeding not explained by accidental cause

    Reference:
    SOWERS, L. (1992, Feb 02). THE GUILT OF INNOCENTS/Normal experimentation vs. sexual abuse. Houston Chronicle (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/...

    I know as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I was highly sexualized at an early age (5).  I was inappropriate with other children because that is what I had been taught.

    In reading this article, it is my feeling that if one child (regardless of age or the age of the other child) crossed the line and touched the other child in a sexual way (the article talks about oral sex) then there is a high probability that this is not normal exploration - but that this child has been exposed to sexual knowledge that far exceeds his or her age.

    "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

    by Roxine on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 03:55:25 PM PST

    •  Hmmm.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yet another liberal

      are you actually suggesting throwing an eleven year old child to the wolves of the criminal justice system?

      In a country that basically brands and stigmatizes its objects for life and completely excludes them from society?

      I once read an article from a mother who's son was subjected to this system as a child - "doctor games" observed and reported by a third party - and who was subsequently slowly destroyed by this system, forced for years to endure endless "therapy" sessions whos only purpose was to utterly destroy his sense of self worth, branded with the "sexual offender" stigma, kept from most educational opportunities etc.

      Any parent worth anything will need to keep his child out of this soul destroying apparatus and address the issues by him or herself (since mandatory reporting laws effectively ensure that no such parent will ever have access to qualified medical or psychological consultation).

      Unless and until the United States joins the world of civilized states, where children are not subject to criminal law at all, and where juveniles enjoy the robust and unpenetrable protection of a working juvenile justice system geared towards rehabilitation and education,  you can not seriously suggest to any parent to expose his child to what is currently there.

      ______
      "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

      by cris0000 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:17:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pls reread above. Pls respond to the points in (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        petesmom

        the comments.

        I think that you may be responding to your experiences.

        Just a thought.

        Peace.

        Courage is the absence of fear * "Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." -- Jack Layton

        by sturunner on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 09:49:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  not really sure what you are talking about... (0+ / 0-)

          I responded to Roxine's remark that

          A recent case in Texas between an 11 year old boy (... and a.. ) 7 year old boy (...)  The families knew each other (...) eventually, the mother let it go.
          (...)
          Letting such an incident go carries a big price for both children.
          (...)
          The offender experiences no consequences and is likely to abuse again.
          That seems to clearly suggest that she advocates criminal justice involvement in (that|such a) case - because that is the only alternative to "letting it go".

          This, btw, applies to this case as well. Looking for an actual abuser is one thing, but suing or criminalizing the girl in question would be a completely different issue.  We'll see how this plays - authorities have done the wrong thing in such cases before.

          ______
          "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

          by cris0000 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 02:18:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was 1st sexually assaulted at 5. It was forced. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cris0000, Roxine

            I was blamed by my family--so it happened many times.  And to other children in the neighborhood. Yes, eventually  others came forward. Still, I was blamed 'cause I was the 1st victim. The others didn't disclose until adulthood. At least 2 killed themselves per investigators.

            If I had killed the perp, many fewer would would have been hurt. Decades later, I still have flashbacks & nightmares.

            FORCE & NO EMOTIONAL SUPPORT--can be lethal.

            Courage is the absence of fear * "Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." -- Jack Layton

            by sturunner on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 02:39:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  cris0000 - nowhere in my post do I say to (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe

            "throw an eleven year old child to the wolves of the criminal justice system" (your first response to me.) What I did say was that it should be reported.  Why?

            Forcing another child to perform oral sex and/or forcing a child to receive oral sex is not typical childhood exploration.  How can you think alerting authorities could do anything but help everyone involved?

            Children who are being sexually abused often never tell.  But they do act out.  On our website, we have signs and symptoms that you can look for under our Prevention tab - I've provided a few relevant links below:

            Age Appropriate Sexual Behavior

            Age 0-5

            Common:
            •Will have questions and express knowledge relating to:
            •differences in gender, private body parts,
            •hygiene and toileting,
            •pregnancy and birth.
            •Will explore genitals and can experience pleasure.
            •Showing and looking at private body parts.
            Uncommon:
            •Having knowledge of specific sexual acts or explicit sexual language.
            •Engaging in adult-like sexual contact with other children.

            School-age (6-8 years)

            Common:
            •Will need knowledge and have questions about
            •physical development, relationships, sexual behavior
            •menstruation and pregnancy,
            •personal values.
            •Experiment with same-age and same gender children, often during games or role-playing.
            •Self stimulation in private is expected to continue.
            Uncommon:
            •Adult-like sexual interactions,
            •Having knowledge of specific sexual acts,
            •Behaving sexually in a public place or through the use of phone or internet technology.

            School-age (9-12) years

            Common:
            :•Will need knowledge and have questions about
            •Sexual materials and information,
            •Relationships and sexual behavior,
            •Using sexual words and discussing sexual acts and personal values, particularly with peers.
            •Increased experimentation with sexual behaviors and romantic relationships.
            •Self stimulation in private is expected to continue.
            Uncommon:
            •Regularly occurring adult-like sexual behavior .
            •Behaving sexually in a public place.
            Warning Signs of Sexual Abuse

            Signs that a Child or Teen may be at risk for harming another child

            "More than a third of all sexual abuse of children is committed by someone under the age of 18. Children, particularly younger children, may take part in inappropriate interactions without understanding how it might be hurtful to others. For this reason, it may be more helpful to talk about a child’s sexually “harmful” behavior rather than sexually “abusive” behavior."
            If you know or suspect a child is being sexually abused

            "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

            by Roxine on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 05:12:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  any report whatsoever (0+ / 0-)

              ends up with law enforcement.  Any.

              That is the result of mandatory reporting laws.
              Whomever you report to - social services, your priest, your psychologist - every single one of them has to indict your child to the police.

              And it actually happens. And law enforcement doesn't help people - it prsoecutes them.

              One interesting article is this one.

              If you do the math on the statistics presented there,  36% of child sexual offenders are younger than 18, and about 5% are even younger than 12. The study is based on law enforcement data.

              To quote:

              "I've seen the whole spectrum," from serious and even sadistic crimes to 16-year-old boys having sex with 13-year-old girlfriends, says psychiatrist Fred Berlin, founder of the Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic. He says research shows the vast majority of juvenile sex offenders don't become adult ones.

              He says too many end up on sex offender registries. "They shouldn't be stigmatized for the rest of their lives," Berlin says.

              Some states have tried to lessen punishment for older teens having consensual sex with underage ones. Most do not list juveniles on their online sex offender registries.

              The Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act, however, requires states to adopt uniform registry rules or risk losing certain federal funds. The act, passed in 2006, requires teens 14 and older to register if they commit serious sex crimes, which can include touching the genitals of someone younger than 12.

              Law enforcement doesn't help people - it punishes them.

              ______
              "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

              by cris0000 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 10:10:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sexually abusing children deserves punishment. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

                by Roxine on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 11:12:33 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  VetGrl

                  If by punishment you mean the criminal justice system, then No No No.

                  Children do not understand the seriousness and implications of their acts. In most societies, children below certain age (e.g. 14) can not be criminally punished at all, no exceptions possible.

                  To criminally indict, try and convict children is a barbaric act of child abuse in itself, and to punish them for life is nothing but sadistic brutality on the part of the ignorant adults involved who project THEIR OWN capabilities, emotions and reactions upon the child.

                  I have nothing but utter contempt for any adult involving himself in such barbaric proceedings.

                  ______
                  "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

                  by cris0000 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 11:30:29 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Don't conflate LE with prison (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Roxine

                    You seem unable to comprehend contact with LE that doesn't end in prison, even for an 11-y.o. That's ridiculous. It probably would and should involve mandatory therapy and keeping the child away from others until the roots of this problem are explored.

                    The other children around need to be protected from 11-y.o.s with these sorts of boundary issues. They are even younger. Is it your (unjustified) position that too young to imprison means too young to be a victim? That you don't see this makes me wonder what sort of parent you are, or will be.

                    •  dangerous illusions about the (US) LE system (0+ / 0-)

                      all it takes is ONE DA out for a scalp.  And there are quite a few of those out there.

                      As for "mandatory therapy", depending on place or sheer chance, that can mean years of enforced quackery, fundamentalist anti-sex therapy and similar nonsense.

                      Leave it to parents and health care specialists to find the right support for a troubled child.

                      ______
                      "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

                      by cris0000 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:35:34 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Even if the alleged abuser is a child? n/t (0+ / 0-)
                  •  As I stated above, normal exploration of children (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Andrew Lazarus

                    does NOT include oral sex - being given or forced upon another child.  In both the case stated in the original diary and the one I referenced in Texas, there was behavior that is NOT normal of children of that age.  (see my post above regarding normal behavior versus unquestionably abusive or evidence of severe problems)

                    If a child is abusing another child - it is VERY LIKELY that the offending child is being abused.  Therefore, reporting any suspected child sexual abuse is a good thing.

                    It is only in darkness and shadows that child sexual abuse continues to exist.  To put an end to it, we must confront it - even when it's uncomfortable.

                    You can't tell me that a 5-year old little girl giving oral sex to 4-year old little boys is normal behavior.  Similarly, you can't tell me that an 11-year-old neighborhood boy forcing a boy into oral sex is normal behavior.

                    True - the 5 year old little girl and 11 year old little boy may not realize what they are doing is wrong - they are probably just doing what they were taught - and there is the key.  They learned it somewhere - and THAT is why any sexual abuse of a child must be reported.

                    "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

                    by Roxine on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 12:38:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  An 11-y.o. sexual predator NEEDS to be stopped (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sturunner, Roxine

                I'm having a hard time seeing your point. Because, for some reason (probably a grim experience of his own), and 11-y.o. is initiating sexual relationships with even younger children there is no need for law enforcement—WTF? 11 is not 16, and 7 is not 13. This is not teen romance gone a little too precocious.

                An 11-y.o. doesn't belong in prison. This 11-y.o., however, belongs in a supervised environment. I wouldn't want kids anywhere near anyone who doesn't see this.

                •  there is no such thing as a 11 year old predator (0+ / 0-)

                  even the word "predator" is inhumane, it dehumanizes a human being into a dangerous animal.

                  Not even adults are "predators" - any person is an image of God, another human being, with inaliable rights and a human dignity, worth of  basic respect and compassion.

                  The word "predator" negates all that. And applying that to a child, who is often not even able to fully comprehend what your warped mind actually means by it, is especially onerous.

                  ______
                  "Und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss - weiß noch nicht dass er tanzen muss", Rammstein, "Amerika"

                  by cris0000 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:41:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site