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View Diary: Richard III’s Body Found? (310 comments)

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  •  Hint: Yes you are. (1+ / 0-)
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    radarlady

    Two words: Margaret Pole.

    Too late for the simple life, too early for android love slaves - Savio

    by Clem Yeobright on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 07:12:17 PM PST

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    •  geeze I just lost my whole comment (2+ / 0-)
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      Laurence Lewis, radarlady

      OK let me give it another try.

      I was referring to heirs that included the 5 adult sons of Edward III and Philippa of Hainault, who originally set up the dukedoms of Lancaster, York, Clarence, Cornwall and Gloucester- all of them challenged the others for the throne and that doesn't even include the 8 daughters who would have at least a claim through their male heirs.

      York and Lancaster, of course, became the main players in this back and forth. It was actually Margaret of Anjou who made the Lancaster side so strong for so long, despite the fact that Henry VI was such a weak link after Henry Vth died way too young.

      Henry the VIIth of course did win eventually even though he had to marry Elizabeth of York to cement his claim and finally put an end to this incredibly long civil war.

      But it doesn't mean that he was a nice guy or that Richard was a monster. It was the way the heirs decided who would hold the power in the 13th and 14th century.

      In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

      by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 08:23:14 PM PST

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      •  richard was a monster (3+ / 0-)
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        vcmvo2, citylights, radarlady

        long before he had the princes killed. he was his brother's enforcer, and ruthless at it. of course, margaret was ruthless herself, and her troops were responsible for the worst atrocities against civilians- despite the decades of war, and the devastation to the houses of edward iii's heirs, the wars actually had little impact on the civilian population. and as gruesome as some of the battles were, none lasted more than a day.

        the tydor claim came through edmund, son of owyn, but only because he married margaret beaufort, who by then, thanks to the wars and executions killing all male heirs in the somerset line, was senior survivor of gaunt's line.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 09:23:09 PM PST

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        •  Yes Margaret Beaufort (4+ / 0-)

          was critical in the whole thing. What I find interesting in the history of these civil wars is how many strong women were involved despite the fact that it was not a typical role for women. Eleanor of Aquitaine, Margaret of Anjou and Margaret Beaufort were amazing women.

          The men were ruthless and of course Warwick kept switching sides in an attempt to be the Kingmaker. The times were barbaric and unless you had a really strong king like Henry Vth, there was guaranteed to be trouble. Edward IV really set up the whole thing by marrying Elizabeth Woodville over Warwick's objections. Once Edward died all hell broke loose.

          In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

          by vcmvo2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 09:58:27 PM PST

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          •  and the marriage to elizabeth (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            citylights, radarlady, vcmvo2, Dvalkure

            already was creating problems during edward's lifetime, because his inner circle began to doubt him, and the way he favored her family, and married her female relatives to all the kingdom's most prominent men, alienated warwick, who wanted a couple of those men for his daughters.

            but henry v himself had a complex legacy, still trying to justify his father's completely unjustified usurpation, while hypocritically trying to conquer france for a claim through a female ancestor (edward ii's wife, isabella, last surviving capetian heir) while denying a similar claim to the mortimers in england through clarence, the latter getting him killed before his son was even born...

            the bottom line is that this ruling monarchy stuff just doesn't work...

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 10:31:37 PM PST

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            •  Yep! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Laurence Lewis, Dvalkure

              A ruling monarchy, no matter how attractive the myths surrounding their reign is just not responsive to their subjects needs.

              They are brought up not to govern but to fight wars and take territory for the greater glory of their treasury and God!

              In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God ~RFK

              by vcmvo2 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 07:07:07 AM PST

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              •  And this differs from today's Repub. Party in (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vcmvo2

                what respect ???!! Okay, not allowed to stab your opponent with a sword 'til he dies.

                 Major Political figures of both parties, of course, but I feel the R's are worse and more blatant offenders. Ambition and ruthlessness never seem to go out of fashion.

                 Although, we Hippies did try !

                “Good things don’t come to those who wait. They come to those who agitate!” Julian Bond

                by Dvalkure on Mon Feb 04, 2013 at 11:24:12 AM PST

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          •  and btw... (6+ / 0-)

            i recently bought, but haven't read, nancy goldstone's four queens. and i plan to do a photo diary or two on eleanor of aquitaine, when i have the time. i've been to most of her main haunts, from poitiers to bordeaux to paris to winchester and old sarum to chinon to fontevrault.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Feb 03, 2013 at 10:36:45 PM PST

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