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View Diary: Why We Should Care About Richard III (315 comments)

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  •  Amen. (18+ / 0-)
    It was pure and cynical politics that branded Richard as a loathesome, misshapen monster.
    Not only was Henry Tudor's claim through a woman but through an illegitimate child. He was the great great grandson of John of Gaunt by his mistress (whom he later married) Katherine Swynford. The Princes in the Tower were a huge threat to his claims.

    You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

    by sewaneepat on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 07:35:59 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  because both he and they were illegitimate (13+ / 0-)

      whereas Richard was born the right side of the sheets.

      Honestly, his nephews didn't really pose much of a threat to him, even if he were morally capable of murdering them. If anything, killing them would weaken his claim by doing exactly what that story has done through the ages:  make him look like an unnatural monster.

      As far as all the humiliation wounds go, remember that a lot of Henry Tudor's troops were French, and the French and Richard were not friends. At all.

      if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:12:32 AM PST

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      •  i'm wondering if richardIII saw the way the wind (5+ / 0-)

        was blowing for a number of reasons and actually assisted in spiriting the young princes to burgundy.  

        at the same time frame of their disappearance, Richard III experienced the betrayal of buckingham, a close advisor, confidant, whatever, turn on him and allign with henry tudor.

        tudor was known to have a highly effective network of spies  - could buckingham have always been alligned with tudor and merely sought place close to richard III for the purpose of informing?

        i personally have always thought buckingham did the murder, if murder was done, of the two princes, but that certainly henry tudor had more need of their deaths than richard III.

        HAPPY SECOND TERM EVERYBODY !!! WHAT'S YOUR PLAN FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS? THE NEXT FOUR YEARS OF WORK ARE WHAT THE LAST SIX YEARS OF WORK WERE ALL ABOUT! (-9.75 / -9.05)

        by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:49:19 PM PST

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        •  we really need to have those bones in westminster (4+ / 0-)

          presumed to be the young princes, tested now that we have a mtdna triangulation with richard's bones.

          then we need to open the vault where edward iv and elizabeth woodville are interred at windsor, and see who's in those four little caskets.

          HAPPY SECOND TERM EVERYBODY !!! WHAT'S YOUR PLAN FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS? THE NEXT FOUR YEARS OF WORK ARE WHAT THE LAST SIX YEARS OF WORK WERE ALL ABOUT! (-9.75 / -9.05)

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 01:52:42 PM PST

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        •  I would like to believe that-- (1+ / 0-)

          Richard was certainly smart, whatever else he was (everybody agrees with that) and he may have gotten the boys out (remember the same was done with him and his brother years before). OTOH, it looks to me like Richard was preparing for an orderly transition of power to the young prince, with himself as Protector, when suddenly everything blew up in his face. From what evidence remains, it seems like things started happening very quickly indeed. He may not have had time. Guess we'll never know, unless the Windsors decide it's OK to test those bones.

          Damn Edward anyway, how many secret marriages does any one man need?

          if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 01:36:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i just watched a fairly scholarly video (0+ / 0-)

            which had some new information, discovered in rouen by a researcher doing work on the war of roses.  

            we know that edward iv , richard's brother and the princes' father, was born and baptisedin rouen, and was said to be conceived in rouen.  all this we know, because there are cathedral records of his mother being there, and the birth and baptism is recorded.  rouen was the english royals HQ abroad, so to speak.

            however, the same records have entries of masses and prayers and what not being said for edward IV's father who was in the south of france dealing with some rebellion or war  for a 6 week period of time which would cover the period of conception.

            add this to edward's large and blonde appearance, the fact that his mother herself apparently said he was not legitimate on two occasions, plus his very small scale christening in contrast to the next son's enormous celebration, all adds up to richard knowing there was to be big trouble in the making, on top of the trouble that always came about when the inheritor of the throne was a minor.  

            so now the deal is, apparently, that even if they test those bones said too be the princes', they might not correlate to those of richard's at all.   they would also have to test the dna of edward IV, his wife elizabeth woodville, or those, even of henry VIII, who would have been the princes'  nephew.  

            the really sad thing is that these people didn't know any yiddish so they couldn't have vented their feelings by saying 'oy vey what a mishagas!!'.  

            there doesn't seem to be any other way of putting it.  

            i'd like to think those boys made it to burgundy.

            i can see why the queen would be reluctant to see this all proved.  it really weakens the concept of monarchy.

            here's the video, let me know what you think.
            the part i mentioned is in the last quarter or so:

            HAPPY SECOND TERM EVERYBODY !!! WHAT'S YOUR PLAN FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS? THE NEXT FOUR YEARS OF WORK ARE WHAT THE LAST SIX YEARS OF WORK WERE ALL ABOUT! (-9.75 / -9.05)

            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:10:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  So....you've just defeated Richard. You haul ass (17+ / 0-)

      to London, where there are two kids in the tower who have a much better bloodline claim to the throne that you, and a whole pack of ambitious and devious relatives who will back that claim.  What to do? What to do?

      Get rid of them....and blame it on Richard.

      Win-win.

      Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

      by Sirenus on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 11:05:21 AM PST

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    •  Michael Ibsen should press his claim (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChemBob, wheeldog, Jorybu, CA wildwoman

      and meet Elizabeth on the battlefield.

      Small varmints, if you will.

      by aztecraingod on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 12:06:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is good form (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        caryltoo, Wee Mama, aztecraingod

        to make the challenge to the King's (Queen's) Champion. Traditionally, the  King's Champion would appear to take on all challangers at Westminster Hall where the coronation banquet was being held.  He would ride into the hall on the King's horse and wearing the King's armor, throw  down a gauntlet, and announce his willingness to do battle.  This was accompanied by pageantry that would have made   Cecil B. DeMille proud.

        The King's Champion is a hereditary role held by the Dymoke family (also spelled Dimmocke, Dimock, Dimmick, etc.) since the coronation of Richard II.  The current Queen's Champion is Lieutenant-Colonel John Lindley Marmion Dymoke.

        There are Dymokes in the family trees of Kate Middleton and George Washington (and mine).

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