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View Diary: Assassination Rationales Then & Now--And How Awlaki Didn't Meet Any of the Criteria (163 comments)

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  •  They won't tell us (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gerrilea, Hayate Yagami

    "(1) It is unknown whether the U.S. targeted the teenager or whether he was merely “collateral damage.” The reason that’s unknown is because the Obama administration refuses to tell us. Said the Post: “The officials would not discuss the attack in any detail, including who the target was.” So here we have yet again one of the most consequential acts a government can take — killing one of its own citizens, in this case a teenage boy — and the government refuses even to talk about what it did, why it did it, what its justification is, what evidence it possesses, or what principles it has embraced in general for such actions. Indeed, it refuses even to admit it did this, since it refuses even to admit that it has a drone program at all and that it is engaged in military action in Yemen. It’s just all shrouded in total secrecy."

    "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

    by Bisbonian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:12:53 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  They should tell us (0+ / 0-)

      But do you seriously think he was the target there? It seems highly unlikely since he had no military or informational significance and that the intentional killing of an innocent minor  has the potential to be a p.r. disaster of the highest order. It seems far more likely that he just associated himself with the wrong people and the result was his death. I am not particularly upset by this.

      •  "I am not particularly upset by this", that's the (0+ / 0-)

        problem.

        It seems far more likely that he just associated himself with the wrong people
        HIS father, he was with his father.

        So, when the gov't says you're the terrorist, should we care when your wife, daughter or family member, whom lives with you gets killed????

        Because they associated themselves with the "wrong people"?????

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:36:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  wrong (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          he was killed two weeks after his father...

          http://www.cnn.com/...

          "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

          by durrati on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:40:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No he wasn't with his father (0+ / 0-)

          His father was a a grease spot on the desert floor by that time. He was in a vehicle containing Al Qaeda operatives, including Ibrahim al-Bana., the media chief of the Yemeni AQ branch.  Yes, I would call that associating with the wrong people. Just as it is unwise to get into a car being driven by a known alcoholic with beer on his breath, it is dangerous to get into a car with known terrorists in  region where both the local government and the US government have been carrying out anti terrorist strikes.

          The wrong people for sure.

          •  Yep, I was wrong, he went looking for his father. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bisbonian, Hayate Yagami, aliasalias

            http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...

            Nasser al-Awlaki said Abdulrahman was in the first year of secondary school when he left Sanaa to find his father. He wrote a note to his mother, saying he missed his father and wanted to see him. The teenager traveled to the family’s tribal home in southern Yemen, but Anwar al-Awlaki was killed Sep. 30 in Yemen’s northern Jawf province, about 90 miles east of the capital.
            So, the way to erase the collateral damage numbers is to claim they're all terrorists, got it.

            I keep forgetting.

            Tutu: Bush, Blair should face trial at the Hague

            Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Desmond Tutu called Sunday for Tony Blair and George Bush to face prosecution at the International Criminal Court for their role in the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq

            Tutu, the retired Anglican Church's archbishop of South Africa, wrote in an op-ed piece for The Observer newspaper that the ex-leaders of Britain and the United States should be made to "answer for their actions."

            So, since we're harboring a known War Criminal, should we be targeted and killed by an outside military force, it's okay???

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:09:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  more intellectual dishonesty from you (0+ / 0-)

              hardly surprising, though.

              No one's claiming this;
              S

              o, the way to erase the collateral damage numbers is to claim they're all terrorists, got it.

              I keep forgetting

              The argument is that the son of Al-Awlaki was in fact collateral damage and not a terrorist. This is the very opposite of the position that you are attributing to me.
              •  It's official US policy (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aliasalias, gerrilea

                http://www.dailykos.com/... (sourcing in original diary)

                Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.

                "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

                by Hayate Yagami on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 04:23:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not exactly relevent here (0+ / 0-)

                  That's the rationale for making the strike in the first place. Arguably a sensible policy, since if you had to make 100% sure there was not one civilian combatant, you could almost never make a strike. It's not the rationale for justifying the killing afterwards, as the poster above was claiming and apparently, attributing said policy to me.

                  •  You're right I did do that, didn't I? Apologies. (0+ / 0-)

                    You did however justify the murder of an innocent child because "he went with bad company", to paraphrase you, correct?  You then tried patronizing me by telling my my mother surely taught me better than to hang around with bad crowds.

                    You blamed the victim.

                    And it is exactly relevant, you justify the killing of innocent Americans through the use of drones by the CIA, an intelligence agency, not even our military.  Who gave them the hardware? Who authorized the use of military hardware by a civilian intelligence agency? The POTUS!

                    The US CONSTITUTION:

                    Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the United States Constitution, sometimes referred to as the War Powers Clause, vests in the Congress the power to declare war, in the following wording:

                        [Congress shall have Power...] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

                    Note it doesn't say the POTUS or a civilian agency under his direct command may wage war in foreign lands.

                    Or is the argument now going to be "it was a police action" akin to Law Enforcement????  Then we'd have to ask who's law is being enforced here, surely not "We The People's Law".

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 05:50:15 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

                      I didn't justify the murder because there was no evidence that there was  any murder that needed.   Al-Awlaki Jr. wasn't murdered. I see no evidence to support that theory. Most logically, he was collateral damage, because he voluntarily got into a car with known AQ operatives in an area where he knew or should have known that both the Yemeni and US governments were taking aggressive, lethal action against militants.  There's no logical reason to believe that the U.S. government intentionally targeted him.
                      And no, I didn't intend to patronize you. I ask that question in all seriousness. My parents warned me growing up about not getting mixed up with the wrong crowd as it can get you into trouble, even kill you. I.E. Don't get in the car with the driver who's been drinking, stay away from those who do drugs, etc. The same logic ought to apply to the late Al-Awlaki family.

      •  P. R. Disaster? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea

        Not if everybody just says, "Meh...."

        "We refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to fight in a war." -freewayblogger

        by Bisbonian on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:49:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or if people (0+ / 0-)

          pay attention to the facts and draw logical inferences from them instead of distorting ......

          •  Paying attention to what facts????? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bisbonian, aliasalias

            The ones we aren't allowed to see?

            This is sickening.

            Good day.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:11:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the ones you appear to be ignorant of (0+ / 0-)

              Such as who the late Mr. Al-Alwaki Jr. was with when he met his untimely, but not all that upsetting demise.

              •  Meaningless drivel, sorry I didn't recall it all (0+ / 0-)

                clearly.

                It doesn't change the fact that this Administration has "white papers" that outline the targeted killing of American Citizens on American Soil.

                The "slippery slope" we've gone down wasn't a surprise to many of us.

                So, in your "high estimation", since I'm ignorant, my concerns for these very dangerous developments can be brushed aside???

                The path that lead us to this moment, details aside, invalidates these fears???

                You claiming he shouldn't have been there, is insulting and offensive. I don't have relativistic morality.  I do believe in the rule of law and that our government must obey the rules we gave it, without exception.

                When it fails to do so, it become illegitimate and the perpetrators become traitors.

                You present an argument that "justifies" treason, shameful.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:41:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's hardly meaningless "Drivel" (0+ / 0-)

                  since you used your incorrect "facts" to try and refute my position that the son was collateral damage and the intended target was not him, but those he was with.

                  You claiming he shouldn't have been there, is insulting and offensive.
                  Why is this insulting? You think he SHOULD have been in a car with know enemies of the US? Didn't your mom ever warn you about hanging out with the wrong crowd? This is the ultimate case of that.
                  •  Hon, this isn't about my Mom or how I was raised. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Bisbonian, aliasalias

                    Your position is morally bankrupt as is your defense of unconstitutional actions taken by this administration to target and kill Americans without due process.

                    Any of us can be the next target, period.

                    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

                    ~Thomas Jefferson.

                    I will not support your tyrannical justifications, no matter how you attempt to present them to me.

                    I'm not that naive.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:54:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not your "Hon" (0+ / 0-)

                      for starters.

                      Any of us can be the next target, period.
                      If we go foreign countries and recruit terrorists, I imagine we could be. Otherwise, I probably have more chance of being hit by an asteroid.
                      •  Great plan here to divert attention from the (0+ / 0-)

                        facts of the diary.

                        I didn't miss the misdirection, really.  Don't like my condescending attitude, then stop patronizing me.

                        This has nothing to do with being hit by an asteroid or going into foreign lands to recruit freedom fighters.

                        It has everything to do with the white papers that reveal there is a plan to target and kill Americans on American Soil using drones.

                        Treasonous acts being put forth by our government and what the hell are we going to do about it?

                        Ask nicely? "Please don't kill me with the drones, MR. PRESIDENT!"

                        The authors of said "opinions" should be arrested, Gitmo'd and then let's see what they know!  Who ordered them to create these opinions, when and why.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 04:46:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I hope the irony of your own posts (0+ / 0-)

                          isn't lost on you:

                          he authors of said "opinions" should be arrested, Gitmo'd and then let's see what they know!  Who ordered them to create these opinions, when and wh
                          So an American who did nothing more than author a position paper should be arrested for something that is not illegal, taken out of the country and tortured but hanging out with AQ terrorists is AOK? I sure hope this is snark, otherwise you are very, very sick individual.
                          •  Ad hominems are not acceptable discourse here. (0+ / 0-)

                            It was mostly snark, going along with your stated position that the targeted killing of Americans for exercising their right to a free press and political speech should be enough to kill them, extrajudicially.

                            Since there is no "rule of law" in your position, you can't now argue that my position is invalid, really.  "WE don't torture", right?

                            There is no difference here except who's doing the talking, Anwar al-Aulaqi or the administration's "legal" teams.

                            What they wrote, we don't know the specific details, but we do know they planned on killing American Citizens on American soil.  Sounds like Conspiracy to commit treason.  Isn't this the argument you made against al-Aulaqi???

                            Or is their speech protected because it's not an eminent threat?

                            The cognitive dissonance is revealing, isn't it?

                            Can't hold two opposing viewpoints and claim they are both valid.  

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 05:08:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  In fact, when old Benjamin Franklin went to (0+ / 0-)

                        France to get support, both militarily and financially, for our revolution, he would be considered a terrorist today, wouldn't he???

                        Clearly from the arguments you put forth here, there can be no doubt AND that is another problem revealed.

                        What line does an American cross that makes him a traitor or a terrorist?  One that advocates for the rule of law?

                        Or just ones that argue against our bloodlust Imperialism in foreign lands to install puppet dictators that go on to kill millions?

                        That is, after all what he did. Argue against our bloodlust.

                        Would I be considered a terrorist for arguing against our Imperialism? For arguing against the War Crimes committed? For defending the constitution?

                        If so, then report me to the CIA, they must have a few extra drones laying around to get me.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 04:55:23 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  Officially by leak (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger

      the target Ibrahim al-Banna but just as likely they were after the whole crew....

      "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

      by durrati on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:38:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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