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View Diary: Assassination Rationales Then & Now--And How Awlaki Didn't Meet Any of the Criteria (163 comments)

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  •  ROFL, love it...really...sooo sweet of you. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aliasalias

    I may have forgotten the details of Anwar al-Aulaqi's son's indiscriminate murder but I didn't forget the point here.

    One that you're trying to obfuscate.

    The targeted killing of American Citizens without due process.

    Let's not forget that his parents petitioned the courts with the help of the ACLU and the courts refused because there was no standing, he hadn't been charged with anything.

    Funny how that works, right????

    Now we're being informed that there are plans and white papers to target and kill Americans on American soil.

    I didn't get that part wrong either.

    But we mustn't talk about these things, I know, I know, I know, I did try to make a point that was wrong, I said I was wrong, so sue me.

    This whole "war on terror" is a scam, its clearly a war on the American people.  The Padilla case makes clear any of us can be held without trial, forever.

    These developments makes clear that we now won't be held, we'll just be targeted and killed.  Then the months after our deaths, the press will mysteriously "release" secret memo's showing how guilty we were for questioning the authority of our corporate overlords.

    Sweet tyranny, thanks but no thanks.

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 04:39:09 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not what the court ruled (0+ / 0-)

      Standing means that Al-Awlaki's father couldn't maintain a legal action on his son's behalf, since Al-Alwaki was an adult. It's basic principle of law that the person bringing the action has to have a legal interest in the outcome. Al-Awlaki was free to return to the US, get a lawyer or file a pro se appearance if he wanted to do. It is obvious he did not want to do this. The court did not base its ruling upon the fact that Al Awlaki was not charged with anything. It was lack of standing and the political question doctrine, which made this unreviewable. (Hint: Brandenberg won't help you here)

      •  Rofl, the US Constitution does... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pot

        http://www.salon.com/...

        As a reminder:  Obama supporters who are dutifully insisting that the President not only has the right to order American citizens killed without due process, but to do so in total secrecy, on the ground that Awlaki is a Terrorist and Traitor, are embracing those accusations without having the slightest idea whether they’re actually true.  All they know is that Obama has issued these accusations, which is good enough for them.  That’s the authoritarian mind, by definition:  if the Leader accuses a fellow citizen of something, then it’s true — no trial or any due process at all is needed and there is no need even for judicial review before the decreed sentence is meted out, even when the sentence is death.

        For those reciting the “Awlaki-is-a-traitor” mantra, there’s also the apparently irrelevant matter that Article III, Section 3 of the Constitution (the document which these same Obama supporters pretended to care about during the Bush years) provides that “No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.”  Treason is a crime that the Constitution specifically requires be proven with due process in court, not by unilateral presidential decree.  And that’s to say nothing of the fact that the same document — the Constitution — expressly forbids the deprivation of life “without due process of law.”  This one sentence from the Post article nicely summarizes the state of Obama’s civil liberties record:

        Argue this one baby!

        Point, set, match.

        The highest law of the land IS the Constitution, Brandenberg was based on said piece of paper.

        See how nicely it works out for all of us when our created government does what it's supposed to do?

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 06:17:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you and Greenwald are both idiots (0+ / 0-)

          there is no doubt of the guilt of Al-Awlaki, here, on video, he calls for American Muslims to rise up and follow the example of Nidal Hasan the Ft. Hood murderer. Thousands have witnessed his treason and confession on the open internet.

          The President had every right and duty to wipe this worthless piece of shit from the face of the Earth.

          Checkmate.

          "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

          by durrati on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 07:22:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nice try, nope doesn't cut it... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pot

            show me the "eminent threat" the US Supreme Court has established as the standard.

            Then show me where the US Constitution granted the POTUS the power to kill any American Citizen not charged, tried or convicted????

            It didn't.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 07:28:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Incitement to violence (0+ / 0-)

              by a skilled sociopath represents an imminent threat as the actions of the Underwear Bomber proved. Al-Awlaki convicted himself, this video statement bears witness to that. To argue that the President had no recourse but to depend on a foreign government to apprehend is to argue that the President has no right to defend American citizens conducting their daily lives.

              Tell that to these folks...

               http://www.examiner.com/...

              "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

              by durrati on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 08:24:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow, you've devolved this discussion into an (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pot

                emotional ploy and trotting out pictures of dead citizens that he did not kill.  

                If there was evidence of his crimes then the President is constitutionally obligated to follow the law enumerated for him, not anything more or less.

                I will not ascribe to your empty emotional argument or manipulation into falsely believing the POTUS is some savior! "The protector of the American way"...bullcrap! He is not, nor will the next one be, they are public servants.  This issue we're discussing will effect generations of Americans to come.

                I don't want to tell my Grandchildren that I did nothing to stop this nation from falling into a tyrannical dictatorship.

                You may wish to naively believe these public servants can do more than the limited powers we granted them...I DO NOT.

                And as long as that piece of paper is still the supreme law of this land, there is no debate here.

                Sadly, you've proven that you have no legitimate argument, I wish you did because I would have loved to debate it, not this crap passed off as such.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:03:18 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Commander -In-Chief of the Armed Forces (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dr Swig Mcjigger

                  is in itself a rather broad and nebulous authority that Washington used to stem the Whiskey Rebellion, Jefferson used to attack Tripoli, Polk used to conquer half a continent, Lincoln used to rescind Habeas corpus and free the slaves, FDR used to arm England, Truman used to avert a steel strike, Ike and JFK used to end segregation, all without a specific Constitutional mandate. I think the Republic can survive this President wielding the title to rid the planet of a shitheel little terrorist who celebrated mass murder and called for more.

                  But maybe you are right and a Boeing 777 or two full of people should have been sacrificed to your tender sensibilities....

                  but I think not.

                  "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

                  by durrati on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:20:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Again, emotional arguments have no sway with (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    pot

                    me.  Didn't you get that part?

                    The constitutional mandate you claim now is that since presidents have violated the constitution before, it's acceptable for them to continue doing it, even today, while I'm alive, NOPE doesn't work.

                    All the examples you present were done before I was born, I had no say or control over those things.

                    And no, the Republic will not survive as a Republic if you find it acceptable to target and kill those Americans and their free speech you don't agree with.

                    Maybe you need to review this for a brief moment to understand where I currently am, in this debate:

                    "Tender my sensibilities" Is this some kind of perverse threat?  Seriously, are you saying that if I don't buy into your propaganda and fear porn, it will happen again?  Or since I won't buy into your belief system of tyrannical unitary executive powers, it's my fault somehow?

                    It would stop if we stopped invading other countries.

                    THIS VIDEO reveals a helluva a lot more than your propaganda here will ever address:

                    Have a great day.

                    Remember the last lines of the second video, please:

                    No justice, No peace!

                     

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:45:37 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Free speech does not include (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dr Swig Mcjigger

                      the right to foment violence against American citizens who may or may not share your views or mine.

                      I have concerns about indefinite detention, but recognize it has been used before in time of war and did not result in Constitutional crisis, but, as you contend, the nature of this war and doubts about its being resolved in a timely fashion bring up additional problems. As for now I am content to let the courts settle matters, I may change my mind later, but regardless I won't be fashioning bombs as rebuttal.

                      I think you are at the wrong site. Dailykos is for those of us that want to affect democracy through the power of the vote. Allowing use of the site by those who would defend the tactic of attempting to affect policy by murder I contend just might weaken the chances of success of this primary mission. But that is just the political me talking.

                      Such matters are for kos to decide.

                      Good Day.

                      "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

                      by durrati on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:18:12 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wow, you now question my motives? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        pot

                        Why are you making this about me and not the argument I've presented?

                        I've tried to be respectful of your contrary arguments here.  We are here to elect more and better Democrats, and not necessarily in that order.  

                        I want better Democrats, okay?  There are many here that keep holding our elected officials accountable, such as Jesselyn does here.  

                        As Joe Shikspack does here:

                        http://www.dailykos.com/...

                        OPOL does.

                        JPMassar is one of my favorites.

                        We all have one real goal, better Democrats.

                        AS for your claim about "free speech" it is incorrect and the courts have decided, the Supreme Court's legal framework of "eminent threat" MUST BE MET.

                        Only when it crosses that line can your claims be accurate.  And then the POTUS is obligated to follow the due process clauses included in the Bill of Rights.  You can't have it both ways here.

                        Then you'd have to establish what "war" are we in?  What "declared" war, as per the US Constitution? A "war" against a tactic used by the people we oppress?

                        "War on Terror", is that your current position???

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 07:57:11 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't question your motives, brother (0+ / 0-)

                          I question your usefulness. Candidates that would espouse your view that Awalki didn't merit a Hellfire up the bung after calling on all American Muslims on video to emulate his e-mail fave rave the Ft. Hood shooter couldn't get elected sewer inspector in 95% of the districts in the U.S.

                          Ya wanna help support Republicans.

                          "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

                          by durrati on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 04:59:22 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  If you wish for us to abandon our values then (0+ / 0-)

                            we aren't Democrats.

                            That is the point here.

                            Abandoning the Constitution for "temporary safety" IS exactly what the Republicans did and it seems us "Democrats" aren't any better, for now.

                            My usefulness it to get us back to 9-10-01!

                            Okay?

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:38:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Killing Alwaki (0+ / 0-)

                            was not an abandonment of our values. It was defending our fellow countrymen. We shot Yamamoto out of the sky, Roosevelt amped the Operation Pastorius spies, bin Laden got his.

                            We have been in the wrong plenty. Most especially on our own turf. But if you got a problem with Exxon in Saudi Arabia take it up with Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz asswipe don't sneak over here and murder Americans.

                            "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

                            by durrati on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 07:16:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Seriously? A comparison to WWII? (0+ / 0-)

                            Yamamoto was not an American Citizen, was he?

                            Alwaqi was not this:

                            Isoroku Yamamoto was a Japanese Marshal Admiral and the commander-in-chief of the Combined Fleet during World War II
                            He was an American that detested our actions in the Middle East.  He was an American that had all the rights, privileges and protections listed in the United States Constitution.  He exercised those rights and was killed for it, without indictment, judge or jury.  He was, on the word of the POTUS, executed without due process.

                            A difference that you cannot ignore, deny or obfuscate through emotional manipulation.  Meaning the POTUS CAN do it to any of us, whenever he feels like it!

                            Had he been anything other than AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, you would get no arguments from me. Unless of course, he was abducted, tortured at some black site and then indefinitely detained for decades without charges or a trial.  That act puts our military men in danger, you do understand this, right?

                            The enemy can then do it to our men, contrary to the Geneva Conventions and the rules of war.  If we don't follow them, then we cannot expect anyone else to.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 07:46:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are hopeless (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm done here.

                            "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

                            by durrati on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 08:14:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sweet, when confronted with my valid argument (0+ / 0-)

                            you attack me personally and refuse to address these issues.

                            Why did you come into Jesselyn's diary again?

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 07:06:06 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  O.K. (0+ / 0-)

                            as you think somehow that you've won the argument I'll come back in in an attempt to show you how wrong you are, not that I think I'll have much luck...

                            First you ask why I came into Ms. Radack's diary, I was inclined to comment because she was wrong, of course, but most egregiously she was wrong in making this comment.

                            "No one has ever asserted that al-Awlaki was himself a member of Al Quadda, much less an operative, only that he supported the organization through his propaganda."  
                            Well that is just bullshit because the President of the United States did so, here and in addition he stated al asshole "directed the failed attempt to blow up an airplane on Christmas Day in 2009. He directed the failed attempt to blow up U.S. cargo planes in 2010," Mr. Obama said. "And he repeatedly called on individuals in the United States and around the globe to kill innocent men, women and children to advance a murderous agenda."

                            Now I don't know why Ms. Radack, a person of some education and past prominance, chooses to fuck around on Daily Kos misleading her dumbass followers and flaunting her non-use of spell check but because of her standing I chose not to confront her directly but rather to meekly point out that al asshole was a traitor, whose role in trying to kill Americans had been explained circumspectly by the modest and thoughtful Presidebt that waxed him.

                            Knowing not the depths of her readers' ignorance, I did not annotate and footnote my comment because, frankly, I didn't think it necessary... surely some on you must read other than Ms. Radack's productions, but woe, I was wrong (at least on this count) and was told such fantastical things that al asshole was merely an innocent blogger commenting on injustice and the lack of cotton candy rainbows in the environs of Sana'a and heartrending stories of his embrace of his son as they watched the approach of the Hellfire missile that would kill them both two weeks and 120 kilometers apart.

                            I will not respond any further because you are a rather dull person who cannot grasp the simple truth that while the President has no desire to kill you (at least not as of now) al asshole would have gladly directed one of his poor equally misinformed followers to torch you and your entire family without a second thought.

                            In 1955, the Israeli philosopher Yishavayahu Leibowitz complained in a letter to David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, about innocent Palestinians killed in Israeli operations.

                            "I received your letter and I do not agree with you," Ben-Gurion replied. "Were all the human ideals to be given to me on the one hand and Israeli security on the other, I would choose Israeli security because while it is good that there be a world full of peace, fraternity, justice and honesty, it is even more important that we be in it."

                            I would prefer to live in a world where al asshole could have been captured and brought to trial in America to get the juice or the noose he so richly deserved. But failing that  I prefer to be in this world, and I prefer you to be here too, misinformed and misguided as you are.

                            "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

                            by durrati on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 07:25:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow, got some issues here don't you? (0+ / 0-)

                            This isn't about me.  Jesselyn has shined a light into the dark corners of this nation for many people here.

                            The POTUS' word is meaningless.

                            You've gone to great lengths not to answer my questions and continued your personal attacks on me.

                            Let me try to put this in a way you may understand.

                            If we lose who we are as a nation in the process of "staying alive", then our lives and our nation weren't what I thought.  A nation of laws. Selling our national soul to the devil to "keep us safe" IS exactly what the fucking Germans did.

                            Naomi Wolf, "End of America",WATCH IT AND LEARN HISTORY!

                            OUR constitution has enumerated what constitutes "treason", you don't get to decide that, neither do I OR even the POTUS.  Our courts must decide this. WHY IS that stipulation written out? TO PREVENT TYRANNY IN ALL IT'S MANIFESTATIONS. Be it a Military Dictatorship OR our newly labeled, UNITARY EXECUTIVE.  NO PRESIDENT HAS EVER ASSUMED SUCH POWERS UNTIL NOW.

                            HIS word isn't good enough and his actions are High Crimes and Misdemeanors!

                            When we stop killing them, maybe then they'll stop hating us. You fear al-Aulaqi's readers organizing and coming after us because of our CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.  Then maybe we should stop committing them.

                            Your relativistic morality revealed.  It's okay for us to kill millions, mostly innocent unarmed civilians to steal their natural resources as long as no one speaks of it, right?

                            Al Awlaqi spoke the truth our government didn't want revealed.  He was like any other true patriot in this nation.  HE was like any other American!   He spoke truth to power AND was exterminated for it.

                            I could care less what manufactured "evidence" came out afterwards.  If our government had evidence they could have brought it to a grand jury.  That simple lawful act was all that was needed here.

                            Proving to millions of us that we no longer have a Constitution or the rule of law here any more.

                            That "selling of our soul" was completed with the passage of then NDAA.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:44:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

        •  errr, no (0+ / 0-)

          Again, read the case. You keep making the false assertion  that the court ruled that   it couldn't hear the case due to Al-Awlaki never having been charge. The drivel from an idiot like Greenwald that you posted in no way rebuts this.  
          Bradenberg protects speech, and even then, not absolutely. There is evidence that Al-Alwaki did much more than say "The US is eeeeevillll." He actually recruited and helped provide training on a specific mission to kill scores of Americans. That's not protected speech under the most tortured reading of Brandenberg. If it were, conspiracy charges could almost never be successfully brought and in fact, the government successfully convicts people on conspiracy charges all the time.

          Educated yourself on these matters.

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