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View Diary: Hey Shithead Bigots - You got your wish... GBCW (329 comments)

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  •  The quotes you highlight aren't offensive to me. (18+ / 0-)

    The line is drawn subtly but not unclearly.  It's within the bounds of decent discourse to say that AIPAC has too much influence; it's not OK to say that American Jews care more about Israel than the US.  

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:13:40 PM PST

    •  I can't help but think that the precipitant... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, SilentBrook, Smoh, Quicklund, Brit

      ....wasn't some increase in the offensiveness quotient of your adversaries, but the realization that nothing written here on I/P has any potential to change a single mind.  Which, come to think of it, might be the best possible reason to leave!

      You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

      by Rich in PA on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:16:12 PM PST

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      •  I'm pretty sure he saw opinion (16+ / 0-)

        changing against Israel and knew that it could only be anti-semitism.  He fully blamed Palestinians for the conflict and repeatedly said that they were the only one's who could end it.  The more people that disagreed with him the angrier he got, and there have been more and more people who have a problem with Israels action.

        It used to be that when I/P threads hit the Rec list there was overwhelming support for Israel.  Not so much any more.

        •  it's really quite reminiscent (13+ / 0-)

          of what happened to some people after Obama's election. Suddenly they started spouting the most hateful and racist things, birther nonsense and what have you, when before they seemed reasonable and enlightened on race.

          Their entire lives they implicitly assumed that the world would always be the one they knew and loved--the one where they were in charge; therefore their true feelings remained buried. In some cases, deep within their subconscious.

          After the world really started to shift beneath their feet, and they realized they might not be in charge for much longer, they felt their very existence threatened. When their backs were against the wall, the feelings that were buried deep within surfaced in a great rush. And, like many subterranean things, those feelings were dark and ugly.

          I'm taking the diarist at face value. This is not the product of a drunken rage or a momentary temper tantrum. It's what he's always wanted to say and has always felt--the Palestinians are the problem, and any criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic, and to hell with anyone who dares to show anything but unthinking support of Israel's actions.

          "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

          by limpidglass on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 02:42:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  which has been the crux of the IP arguments (6+ / 0-)

            it seems, whether statements about the Israeli government could be antisemitic or at what point comments about Israel crossed the line over into antisemitism.

          •  Respectfully I disagree... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            leftynyc

            ... Bevenro's post is exactly correct with regard to VB.

            We're not talking about Don Quixote here.  He was practical and knew what he was talking about - usually more than any other I/P diarist.  But there were things that, rightfully got him upset.  He diagnosed both of the recent IP diaries correctly, called the authors on their claims, and was donutted out of DKos.

            I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

            by Hey338Too on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 09:15:52 PM PST

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          •  I've had alot of contact with VB over the years. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            limpidglass, alain2112

            Including by e-mail and telephone.

            This:

            I'm taking the diarist at face value. This is not the product of a drunken rage or a momentary temper tantrum. It's what he's always wanted to say and has always felt--the Palestinians are the problem, and any criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic, and to hell with anyone who dares to show anything but unthinking support of Israel's actions.
            This is what VB had become.  It is not what he used to be.  I got to know him when he was still a reasonable man.  We worked together on an attempt to calm the discussions in I/P diaries which had less success than we had hoped, but still made a remarkable difference.  Like any of us, he could lose his temper and did on occasion.

            Lately - over about the last 12 to 15 months - he has moved more and more in line with Israeli hard-liners.  His opinions were becoming harsh and he began to target The Troubadour and (to a much lesser extent) me as well.  I have read some of the things on the blog he runs and as bad as he claims some other websites to be, his can be at least as bad in both what he writes and what he allows to remain posted there.

            He wasn't always like this.  He used to be much more of a moderate.  What he has made himself into is obvious from this diary.  The "Epic Flame-out" seems to have been all he had left.

            Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

            by Celtic Merlin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 08:12:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know when that was. I learned to avoid (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BrianParker14

          I/P diaries because any I've seen have always been mostly anti-Israel.

    •  The Israel lobby's presence certainly (23+ / 0-)

      wasn't felt at all at the Hagel hearing.

      Mentions:

      Israel—166
      Iran—144
      Afghanistan—20
      Drones—0
    •  I think you have expressed this well. Clearly (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Smoh, chuckvw, SadieSue, BrianParker14

      AIPAC has great influence.  That is not debatable, they even have bragged about it.  Is it too much?  This gets to be opinion and should be within bounds of decent discourse.  And again I think you are correct to say that "it's not OK to say that American Jews care more about Israel than the US."  That is not true.  Where I don't know where to draw the line is if some specific American Jew has taken actions on behalf of Israel that raise questions about their concern for the US.  I'm thinking of people like Sheldon Adelson and Elliot Abrams.  They say and do things that I believe are counter the best interests of our country but I don't know where the line is.  I don't know what they can legitimately be called on so I duck rather than comment about them.

      Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself. Harry Truman

      by ratcityreprobate on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:33:23 PM PST

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      •  I think that's really the tipping point. (4+ / 0-)

        In the end I would say it's not acceptable to accuse an American, Jewish or not, of caring more about Israel than the US.  That's because such people have an overall framework, which we've shorthanded as neoconservatism, that sees US interests as so bound up with Israeli interests as defined by the Israeli Right (and that's a key qualifier!) that even things that might seem to be against US interests, like getting into a war with Iran, actually aren't.  I think they're sincere about that.  

        You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

        by Rich in PA on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:44:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't accuse anyone here of caring (7+ / 0-)

          more about what happens in Israel than in the US.  But I would bet my ass that a lot of the Jesus-is-a-coming-back crowd is rooting for a melt down in the region.

        •  Rich, Thanks for that explication. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh

          Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself. Harry Truman

          by ratcityreprobate on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 04:10:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Is it caring more about Israel (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, mickT, Rusty Pipes, Mokurai

          or caring more about campaign donations?  Because I don't think it's crazy to say that many politicians care more about pleasing lobbying groups, in general, than they do about what's best for the country.  I doubt anyone would have a problem with saying that many politicians care more about pleasing the NRA, for example, than doing what's best for the country.  I didn't look that closely at The Troubador's diary, but I have a hard time imagining that he was arguing that Jewish people can't be "real Americans".

          To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

          by sneakers563 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 05:00:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  When you consider that The Troubadour is (5+ / 0-)

            . . . The Troubadour is a Jew himself (and an American), you are going to have an even harder time making the case that he was arguing that Jews can't be real Americans.

            VB's problem with The Troub's diary was that TT insinuated in his diary that the Israeli Lobby in general and AIPAC in particular wield disproportionate influence upon our congresscritters.  TT used the graphs showing how much more often Israel was mentioned than any other issue in the Hagel Confirmation Hearings as an example of this.  VB has long (more than a year, at least) held the position that anybody who questions the power level of the Israel Lobby is pushing the (completely ridiculous) idea that the US suffers from a Zionist Occupied Government (or, "ZOG").  It was VB's way of defending the Israeli Lobby's ability to have its impact on US policy and US policy makers.

            The fact is that every lobby in DC has at least some influence, or they wouldn't exist for very long.  Some lobbies are more powerful than others.  The NRA certainly holds a disproportionate amount of sway with our government.  Some other nations (China, the Saudis, etc.) also have well-funded and well-organized lobbies in our nation's capitol.  One of these very powerful lobbies in DC is the Israel Lobby.  This is a fact.  It is widely-known and broadly-recognized that the Israel Lobby is one of the 10 most powerful lobbies in DC.  Only the most radical of those who wish this lobby to continue to be so very powerful and perhaps even grow in strength are the ones who equate criticism of that lobby's power with antisemitism and/or ZOG.

            It is certainly permissible to discuss this lobby and how powerful they are without being an antisemite or holding the position that we have a ZOG.  It is certainly permissible to discuss whether or not this lobby wields a disproportionate amount of power without being an antisemite or making the claim that there is a ZOG in the USA.

            VB, however, did not want these things to be discussed.  This is why he tried the sickening tactic of saying that TT's diary sounded like something out of The Protocols.  It was an obvious attempt to at least shut down the discussion and probably to hijack the diary away from a calm and meaningful discussion of these topics.  It succeeded, but at the cost of VB's ratings ability.

            Being punished for what he did in TT's diary made VB understandably upset, but his loss of ratings ability was entirely appropriate.  The real problem for VB arose when he decided that he disagreed with his punishment so vehemently that he just had to write the diary under which we are commenting.  This diary is what caused him to be banned.

            I hope this helps your understanding of the situation.

            Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

            by Celtic Merlin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 02:59:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Excellent Summary (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Celtic Merlin, Smoh

              Thanks

              The White Race can not survive without dairy products - Herbert Hoover (-8.75,-8.36)

              by alain2112 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 04:53:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Diane Gee, Smoh

                I've known VB pretty well for several years and I have met The Troubadour in person.  I've had lengthy conversations with both men.

                The Troubadour is a fine man and an all-round good person.  I respect him.  Read his diaries.  They give a person a good sense of the kind of person he is.

                VB used to be a reasonable man.  He has, as of late, radicalized himself.  This GBCW diary is what he has become.  The man I met more than 4 years ago would never have typed this shitty mess and then posted it.

                Celtic Merlin
                Carlinist

                Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

                by Celtic Merlin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 05:03:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  First, and let be clear... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL

              ... that I am not a "fan" of TT - TT is an AMERICAN and he is also Jewish.  The same can be said of all of us who were born and raised in this country that are Jewish.  We are American Jews.

              Second, in TT's diary it was not "insinuated" that "the Israeli Lobby in general and AIPAC in particular wield disproportionate influence upon our congresscritters".  It was stated as fact, for example:

              The reason for this disproportionate, obsessive focus on Israel with no regard for U.S. troops in Afghanistan? Simple: AIPAC and the "pro-Israel" lobby's...
              Also stated as fact was:
              when the hawkish, "pro-Israel" lobby in America can influence our representatives to sound as if they – well – are representing Israel's citizens more than our own
              Third, Vb never:
              VB has long (more than a year, at least) held the position that anybody who questions the power level of the Israel Lobby is pushing the (completely ridiculous) idea that the US suffers from a Zionist Occupied Government (or, "ZOG")
              If you read the diary in question you will see that he indicates that he is not a fan of AIPAC.  His point was that there could be other reasons for the line of questions during the hearings other than AIPAC.  He felt that as Progressives it was important to look at those other reasons for the tenor of the hearings, rather than an it's "Simple: AIPAC" reason.

              Fourth, this is from Wikipedia:

              The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies.
              Lastly, it was the donuts that arose from his comments in TT's diary that caused his banning - he was NR'd before this diary was posted.  This diary was published when he knew what was going to happen next.

              VB was a good Kossack.  "Insinuation" or "personal beliefs" or "hearsay" presented as fact needs to be called out on this site - regardless of the issue.  Do you agree?

              THAT is what happened here.

              I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

              by Hey338Too on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 05:51:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Accusing someone of believing "ZOG" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poco, Celtic Merlin

              has long been a dog-whistle on this site for smearing a user as a neo-nazi sympathizer (because apparently, ZOG is a popular term at Stormfront).  In 2007, one of our early Palestinian-American posters, umkhalil, was banned from this site after only a few weeks here because of something she had written on her own blog two years prior -- saying that ours is a zog (lower-case).  Pro-Israel commenters who had found that old comment on her blog used that to paint her as an anti-Semite, as well as the flamewars in the comments sections of her diaries, in convincing the admins that she should be banned.

              It isn't nice to go to jail ... but if that's freedom's price

              by Rusty Pipes on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:01:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Is it OK to say that Armageddonists care more (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Diane Gee

      about the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ on Earth than about the US or Israel? Especially when the plan is for Israel and the US to kill all the Muslims in the world, and the Muslims to kill almost all of the Jews, with the rest converting to Christianity?

      BTW, you read the argument wrong. VB1 accused TT of claiming that US Senators were more loyal to Israel than to the US, which TT did not in fact write. Also, VB1 got on his high horse over the claim that AIPAC opposes Chuck Hagel for SecDef, given that AIPAC explicitly made no public statement on the matter. As if only its public statements matter.

      It went rapidly downhill from there, with more than mumble, mumble HRs for…never mind.

      Gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 11:37:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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