Skip to main content

View Diary: Hey Shithead Bigots - You got your wish... GBCW (329 comments)

Comment Preferences

    •  Probably didn't want the pie fight to spill (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicklund, qofdisks

      over to the front page.  Or to encourage the pie fight at all.  I'd bet he'd like to just ban discussion of it altogether.  It's a rather touchy topic for a lot of people.

      •  Yeah, but that's letting the assholes win. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, Quicklund, mahakali overdrive

        Why not police FP diaries and punish everyone who violates community norms. Or turn off comments in such threads.  This blog has global reach. I can't believe he would prohibit discussion of a major geopolitical issue on his front page because of bad users.

        •  There's been lots of really ugly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          disputes around I/P, far uglier than anything else.  Just doesn't want to deal with it.  That might change once people calm down and there is more of a consensus.

          Can you turn off comments?  I didn't know that was possible.

          •  I'm sure he can turn off comments. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            I have some ideas for how he can take down the temperature. I don't have time to elaborate now, but I think that it should be harder for diaries to be recommended. I don't know his algorithm, but my sense is that it rewards the number and rate of recommends. It should also reward the breadth of recommends. A person shouldn't have a diary recommended by the same 20 people.

          •  The pity is that much of the umbrage (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, Smoh, billlaurelMD, Quicklund, ancblu

            around IP diaries is unnecessary and really hurts your particular POV more than it hurts those with opposing views.  That being said, the IP issue does seem to evoke more passion than any other single issue except maybe RKBA.  I have almost quit commenting on IP diaries for that reason

            •  I've mentioned that his vitriol, HRing and habit (15+ / 0-)

              Of calling anyone who disagrees with him anti-Semitic, has made me much more willing to look at the situation more on the Palestinian side.  If he represents moderate Israeli thought, I want nothing to do with them.  RKBA taught me to be rabidly pro gun control for the same reasons.

              Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

              by Smoh on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:05:43 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  which is the reason I try to preach civility and (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Smoh, AoT, ancblu

                moderation in discussions though I violate my own rules at times.  For example, with RKBA, my goal is to educate those who are not familiar with firearms and to be educated by those who are more familiar with firearms.  I would hope the same is true for my participation in IP diaries and any other diaries

              •  From what I understand .... (5+ / 0-)

                he doesn't represent moderate Israeli thought.  I think they're more moderate (if you take the range of views that seem to be "allowed" there) than we are in the U.S.

                How is taking a hundred dollars worth of food from hungry kids or from old poor sick people equal to taking a hundred dollars from billionaires? -- howabout, 19 Dec 2012

                by billlaurelMD on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:47:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  you know I respect you, Smoh--but you're (12+ / 0-)

                wrong about VB.  He is one of the very few extremely knowledgeable posters on the I side--strongly supports a 2 state solution, is fully aware of and disturbed by the right wing Likud gov't and the occupation.

                There are a couple things he will not--ever--tolerate and that send him over the edge.

                1. Any suggestion of what we call 'Z.O.G'--the Zionist-Occupied Government notion that Israel owns the U.S., or that AIPAC controls what senators do, or that they answer to Israel and not hte  U.S.

                I see far too much of that here--the reason it's problematic is that it's derived from the blood libel, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, all of these centuries old conspiracies that Jews somehow have insidiously inserted ourselves in places of power and influence so as to take over the (financial) world.

                I saw SO MUCH OF THIS--and from friends of mine, too--when I was in Europe, that it disturbed the hell out of me.  There is way too much of this ZOG nonsense from the pro-Palestinian side of things--and that is exactly what The Troubadour was doing with his last line of the diary.  VB should never have thrown out the label that he did, but that line was uncalled for, and should have no place here.

                Unfortuantely, things like that get a free pass here because D Kos is strongly pro-Palestinian and often vehemently anti-Israel.

                2.  The other thing that seems to get a free pass here is the association between Israel and Nazi Germany.  There was a diary on that a couple of days ago (yesterday?)  The point of such diaries is to do one thing--use political irony to demonstrate--using contrived and false analogies--that Israeli Jews have become the very thing that they deem most evil--jackbooted SS murderers.

                The occupation is awful and needs to end--but Israel is not Nazi Germany--and any suggestion that they are linked is flat out anti-Semitic-I don't care if you're a Jewish poster or not.

                So these are 2 things that showed up on this very site in the span of 2 days, and what happens?  People love it.  People rec these things left and right, and pile on the few of us I supporters who feel pretty fucking uncomfortable with it.

                As a secular Jew who supports Israel as a state but detests the right wing, and fully endorses a two state solution, IT IS NOT COMFORTABLE HERE.

                Jews--while we may be in general an educated bunch and have managed to do really well in a lot of areas, are STILL NOT A WELL LIKED GROUP OF PEOPLE in many areas of the world---even in the U.S.  Anti-semitisim isn't in the least bit dead.

                So when we see these things--often coming from fellow Jews--it's really upsetting.

                THAT is what set VB off.

                Anyway...hope that clarifies some things...

                •  Well said... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bevenro, fou, leftynyc, JNEREBEL

                  ... I feel that VB was correct in diagnosing both of those diaries for what they were.  DK lost an excellent spokesman in the I/P debates today, and the community as a whole is lessened greatly by what happened today.

                  I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

                  by Hey338Too on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 08:49:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Just a question... no venom behind it (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JesseCW, PhilJD, Mokurai, alain2112

                  I ask this in the spirit of trying to better understand your comment and for my own edification, and with a friendly spirit. Comments can come across so dry and without inflection, so I want you to know I'm not picking a fight, I'm just truly curious.

                  Are you saying that being critical of the lobbying effort of the Likudniks is akin to being anti-Israel or even anti-Semitic? Is there any distinction allowed for criticizing the influence of that lobby vs. the "ZOG" accusation in your mind? Is there a way for people to be concerned about the political focus on "supporting Israel" -- I put it in quotes because I think that there are as many differing views as to what constitutes support as there are people having those opinions; the President's view of support and Michele Bachmann's are miles apart -- without it being an accusation of dual-loyalty?

                  I agree that making Nazi comparisons should be reserved for, well, Nazis. Period. But I also think that accusations of anti-Semitism should be reserved for actual anti-Semitism. I'm interested in your thoughts if you'd be so kind.

                  No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

                  by newinfluence on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 01:21:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I cannot speak for Bevenro, but I do know that... (0+ / 0-)

                    Volleyboy1 was not a fan of AIPAC.  He says so in TT's diary.

                    When a person's "impression" of a situation is presented as a fact, for example (in The Troubadour's diary):

                    The reason for this disproportionate, obsessive focus on Israel with no regard for U.S. troops in Afghanistan? Simple: AIPAC and the "pro-Israel" lobby's ill-founded concern about the Hagel nomination...
                    or:
                    when the hawkish, "pro-Israel" lobby in America can influence our representatives to sound as if they – well – are representing Israel's citizens more than our own
                    ... a line has been crossed.  Do you see that?

                    Bashing AIPAC is no more anti-semitic than bashing the NRA is anti-American.  But if you're going to start from a position which posits that American legislators are IN ANY WAY more concerned with Israeli's than Americans, then that's a different issue.

                    I hope I didn't speak out of turn with regard to bevenro's position.

                    I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

                    by Hey338Too on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:16:48 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  no. it was the last line in The Troubadour's (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hey338Too

                    diary which was deliberately designed to inflame.  Even the setup of it made that obvious.

                    VB took the bait, unfortunately.  He was rightly pissed off..  The rest of us with similar views criticized it, but didn't derail the diary.

                    I'm fine with criticism of the lobby/AIPAC etc. (although AIPAC and the lobby aren't the same thing)

                •  It is very helpful and I thank you for it. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bevenro

                  Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

                  by Smoh on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:47:22 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  That's really not a good reason. Some issues are (0+ / 0-)

                just more emotional for people.

            •  it's because neither side will even remotely (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive, kaliope, entlord

              recognize the legitimate concerns of the other.

              •  It appears we agree on something (0+ / 0-)

                since not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews and the current government, whatever that government is, does not reflect all spectrum of either Israeli or American Jewish thought .

            •  I stayed out of I/P diaries for a time (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil, Anorish, Diane Gee

              after getting bojoed by a cabal of bullies who informed me in no uncertain terms that I was not a Jew, that I was viciously anti-Semitic, and that I was a sock puppet, all on mere supposition. Volleyboy1 was one of them. They are all gone now, as far as I can tell, whether through banning or GBCWing. I got my mojo back in short order by the usual means.

              We must be able to say that Zionism is God's will and utterly moral in all cases or that Zionism as currently practiced is apartheid and a violation of international and Israeli law without the knee-jerk response that either statement proves you to be a Nazi, or anything else of that sort.

              Gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 10:46:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Far uglier? (11+ / 0-)

            Oh please. Have you wandered into a gun control debate of late?

            I actually didn't realize that Kos says no I-P on the frontpahe -- that's news to me, and I suppose BBB would know. I remember Lithium Cola writing about it.

            Kos did once explain why he doesn't write about it: basically because both sides are icky and don't want peace. It's not clear from his post that he realizes one side is occupying the other, I think he might think it's a civil war.

            Me? I grew up in a war zone. And there was one clear lesson I learned -- there will never be peace unless both sides get tired of the fighting and start seeking an alternative.

            It's clear that in the Middle East, no one is sick of the fighting. They have centuries of grudges to resolve, and will continue fighting until they can get over them. And considering that they obviously have no interest in "getting over them", we're stuck with a war that will not end in any forseable future. It doesn't matter what we bloggers say. It doesn't matter what the President of the United States says. Or the United Nations. Or the usual bloviating gasbag pundits.

            When two sides are this dead-set on killing each other, very little can get in the way.

            And I, for one, sure as heck have no desire to get sucked into that no-win situation.

          •  I'm going to disagree a bit... (17+ / 0-)

            What you say is true of I/P 12-18 months ago, but the "remember, you're a guest" and "don't be a dick" rules-of-thumb have served their purpose, and the civility of I/P discourse is much improved. There have been fewer HRs, less uprating gamesmanship, and less frequent instances of threads heading to the far right of the page. There are exceptions, of course, but many of those exceptions have occured in comments to diaries by The Troubadour (as over the last 48 hours) for whom several folks, volleyboy1 included, hold particular animosity. Heck, even during the most recent flare-up in Gaza there was remarkably little metagasming. Really, things are far better than they used to be and, by and large, an oasis of civility in comparison to RKBA diaries.

            Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

            by angry marmot on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:46:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  An excellent policy which should be extended to... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kkjohnson, Smoh

        ... all diaries and most comments. The whole subject should be treated just like advocacy for third party candidates.

        The subject is pure poison and no debate is going to make any difference of any sort about the issue for anyone nor change anyone's opinion. I already saw an otherwise excellent group blog descend into utter shite when an I/P leg humper (which side the humper was humping for is irrelevant) was allowed to join and turned the whole thing into a non-stop I/P flame war. And I really hate it when I see the same thing on Kos.

        Those really passionate about I/P should be told to have their own blog where they can debate the whole thing all their fill all the way back to Methuselah 'till they turn blue.

        I deal in facts. My friends are few but fast.

        by Farugia on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:16:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have been a part of plenty (12+ / 0-)

          of discussions here about I/P that were perfectly respectable, and until yesterday or so it had mostly been that way for a while.  The problems generally arise when someone who is a long time participant flips out, like VB1 yesterday and today, or a new troll shows up and people react to the troll with outrage.  

          Another part of the problem is that there is a lot of history that people just don't know and smart folks will wander into an I/P diary and say something that seems reasonable from an outsider perspective that's terribly inflammatory if you have a better knowledge of the situation.

          I don't think they should be banned, but they should be clearly marked so folks know it's an I/P diary.

        •  I think that would be a mistake. It's like RKBA (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Flyswatterbanjo, Brit, JesseCW

          Since the NRA line has been so discredited, real live discussion has been occurring between moderates on both sides.  I'd like to see that happen with I/P.  there is much to be learned a many issues I would like see fleshed out.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 04:06:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And debate did what about RKBA? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Celtic Merlin

            Sorry to be a bit crude but years and years of thoughtful debate did nothing about RKBA.

            What may have an effect at long bloody !*#$&(!@#$ last is twenty first graders and six of their teachers killed by the nutter son of a gun nut.

            And I'm not even that hopeful about it.

            I deal in facts. My friends are few but fast.

            by Farugia on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 07:05:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Debate affects matters behind the scenes (0+ / 0-)

              Every Progressive position on the issues is in a hopeless minority right up to the moment when it becomes the majority opinion. We have been going through this on LGBT rights for several years since the first state approvals of gay marriage, followed by repeal of DADT. Now DOMA and Prop 8 are coming before the Supreme Court, and much more is happening. Similarly for marijuana and the Drug Wars. Most of Latin America is taking up decriminalization in the wake of new laws in Colorado and Washington.

              Most NRA members disagree with NRA leadership, and the even more vicious Gun Owners of America. It is necessary for those of us who want massacre control to know where responsible gun owners stand, and what are their issues. It helps to know who the irresponsible owners are, too, and what they think they think.

              The NRA leadership used to be for universal background checks, and is now vehemently against them. The membership still approves.

              The real fault line is whether ATF can keep the results of background checks and put them into an electronic database, along with tons (literally) of other gun records now held only on paper. Most NRA members and all gun conspiracy theorists (not the same groups, but with significant overlap) object, while everybody else, including most of law enforcement, agrees that this is obvious common sense.

              Similarly, it is important to know the positions of the responsible and the irresponsible both on I/P, and to spread the word as widely as we can.

              Gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 11:21:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site