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View Diary: Hey Shithead Bigots - You got your wish... GBCW (329 comments)

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  •  The pity is that much of the umbrage (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, Smoh, billlaurelMD, Quicklund, ancblu

    around IP diaries is unnecessary and really hurts your particular POV more than it hurts those with opposing views.  That being said, the IP issue does seem to evoke more passion than any other single issue except maybe RKBA.  I have almost quit commenting on IP diaries for that reason

    •  I've mentioned that his vitriol, HRing and habit (15+ / 0-)

      Of calling anyone who disagrees with him anti-Semitic, has made me much more willing to look at the situation more on the Palestinian side.  If he represents moderate Israeli thought, I want nothing to do with them.  RKBA taught me to be rabidly pro gun control for the same reasons.

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:05:43 PM PST

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      •  which is the reason I try to preach civility and (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, AoT, ancblu

        moderation in discussions though I violate my own rules at times.  For example, with RKBA, my goal is to educate those who are not familiar with firearms and to be educated by those who are more familiar with firearms.  I would hope the same is true for my participation in IP diaries and any other diaries

      •  From what I understand .... (5+ / 0-)

        he doesn't represent moderate Israeli thought.  I think they're more moderate (if you take the range of views that seem to be "allowed" there) than we are in the U.S.

        How is taking a hundred dollars worth of food from hungry kids or from old poor sick people equal to taking a hundred dollars from billionaires? -- howabout, 19 Dec 2012

        by billlaurelMD on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 03:47:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  you know I respect you, Smoh--but you're (12+ / 0-)

        wrong about VB.  He is one of the very few extremely knowledgeable posters on the I side--strongly supports a 2 state solution, is fully aware of and disturbed by the right wing Likud gov't and the occupation.

        There are a couple things he will not--ever--tolerate and that send him over the edge.

        1. Any suggestion of what we call 'Z.O.G'--the Zionist-Occupied Government notion that Israel owns the U.S., or that AIPAC controls what senators do, or that they answer to Israel and not hte  U.S.

        I see far too much of that here--the reason it's problematic is that it's derived from the blood libel, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, all of these centuries old conspiracies that Jews somehow have insidiously inserted ourselves in places of power and influence so as to take over the (financial) world.

        I saw SO MUCH OF THIS--and from friends of mine, too--when I was in Europe, that it disturbed the hell out of me.  There is way too much of this ZOG nonsense from the pro-Palestinian side of things--and that is exactly what The Troubadour was doing with his last line of the diary.  VB should never have thrown out the label that he did, but that line was uncalled for, and should have no place here.

        Unfortuantely, things like that get a free pass here because D Kos is strongly pro-Palestinian and often vehemently anti-Israel.

        2.  The other thing that seems to get a free pass here is the association between Israel and Nazi Germany.  There was a diary on that a couple of days ago (yesterday?)  The point of such diaries is to do one thing--use political irony to demonstrate--using contrived and false analogies--that Israeli Jews have become the very thing that they deem most evil--jackbooted SS murderers.

        The occupation is awful and needs to end--but Israel is not Nazi Germany--and any suggestion that they are linked is flat out anti-Semitic-I don't care if you're a Jewish poster or not.

        So these are 2 things that showed up on this very site in the span of 2 days, and what happens?  People love it.  People rec these things left and right, and pile on the few of us I supporters who feel pretty fucking uncomfortable with it.

        As a secular Jew who supports Israel as a state but detests the right wing, and fully endorses a two state solution, IT IS NOT COMFORTABLE HERE.

        Jews--while we may be in general an educated bunch and have managed to do really well in a lot of areas, are STILL NOT A WELL LIKED GROUP OF PEOPLE in many areas of the world---even in the U.S.  Anti-semitisim isn't in the least bit dead.

        So when we see these things--often coming from fellow Jews--it's really upsetting.

        THAT is what set VB off.

        Anyway...hope that clarifies some things...

        •  Well said... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bevenro, fou, leftynyc, JNEREBEL

          ... I feel that VB was correct in diagnosing both of those diaries for what they were.  DK lost an excellent spokesman in the I/P debates today, and the community as a whole is lessened greatly by what happened today.

          I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

          by Hey338Too on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 08:49:41 PM PST

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        •  Just a question... no venom behind it (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW, PhilJD, Mokurai, alain2112

          I ask this in the spirit of trying to better understand your comment and for my own edification, and with a friendly spirit. Comments can come across so dry and without inflection, so I want you to know I'm not picking a fight, I'm just truly curious.

          Are you saying that being critical of the lobbying effort of the Likudniks is akin to being anti-Israel or even anti-Semitic? Is there any distinction allowed for criticizing the influence of that lobby vs. the "ZOG" accusation in your mind? Is there a way for people to be concerned about the political focus on "supporting Israel" -- I put it in quotes because I think that there are as many differing views as to what constitutes support as there are people having those opinions; the President's view of support and Michele Bachmann's are miles apart -- without it being an accusation of dual-loyalty?

          I agree that making Nazi comparisons should be reserved for, well, Nazis. Period. But I also think that accusations of anti-Semitism should be reserved for actual anti-Semitism. I'm interested in your thoughts if you'd be so kind.

          No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

          by newinfluence on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 01:21:21 AM PST

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          •  I cannot speak for Bevenro, but I do know that... (0+ / 0-)

            Volleyboy1 was not a fan of AIPAC.  He says so in TT's diary.

            When a person's "impression" of a situation is presented as a fact, for example (in The Troubadour's diary):

            The reason for this disproportionate, obsessive focus on Israel with no regard for U.S. troops in Afghanistan? Simple: AIPAC and the "pro-Israel" lobby's ill-founded concern about the Hagel nomination...
            or:
            when the hawkish, "pro-Israel" lobby in America can influence our representatives to sound as if they – well – are representing Israel's citizens more than our own
            ... a line has been crossed.  Do you see that?

            Bashing AIPAC is no more anti-semitic than bashing the NRA is anti-American.  But if you're going to start from a position which posits that American legislators are IN ANY WAY more concerned with Israeli's than Americans, then that's a different issue.

            I hope I didn't speak out of turn with regard to bevenro's position.

            I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

            by Hey338Too on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:16:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  no. it was the last line in The Troubadour's (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too

            diary which was deliberately designed to inflame.  Even the setup of it made that obvious.

            VB took the bait, unfortunately.  He was rightly pissed off..  The rest of us with similar views criticized it, but didn't derail the diary.

            I'm fine with criticism of the lobby/AIPAC etc. (although AIPAC and the lobby aren't the same thing)

        •  It is very helpful and I thank you for it. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bevenro

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 06:47:22 AM PST

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      •  That's really not a good reason. Some issues are (0+ / 0-)

        just more emotional for people.

    •  it's because neither side will even remotely (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mahakali overdrive, kaliope, entlord

      recognize the legitimate concerns of the other.

      •  It appears we agree on something (0+ / 0-)

        since not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews and the current government, whatever that government is, does not reflect all spectrum of either Israeli or American Jewish thought .

    •  I stayed out of I/P diaries for a time (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, Anorish, Diane Gee

      after getting bojoed by a cabal of bullies who informed me in no uncertain terms that I was not a Jew, that I was viciously anti-Semitic, and that I was a sock puppet, all on mere supposition. Volleyboy1 was one of them. They are all gone now, as far as I can tell, whether through banning or GBCWing. I got my mojo back in short order by the usual means.

      We must be able to say that Zionism is God's will and utterly moral in all cases or that Zionism as currently practiced is apartheid and a violation of international and Israeli law without the knee-jerk response that either statement proves you to be a Nazi, or anything else of that sort.

      Gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 10:46:49 AM PST

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