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View Diary: Hey Shithead Bigots - You got your wish... GBCW (329 comments)

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  •  Is it caring more about Israel (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, mickT, Rusty Pipes, Mokurai

    or caring more about campaign donations?  Because I don't think it's crazy to say that many politicians care more about pleasing lobbying groups, in general, than they do about what's best for the country.  I doubt anyone would have a problem with saying that many politicians care more about pleasing the NRA, for example, than doing what's best for the country.  I didn't look that closely at The Troubador's diary, but I have a hard time imagining that he was arguing that Jewish people can't be "real Americans".

    To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

    by sneakers563 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 at 05:00:03 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  When you consider that The Troubadour is (5+ / 0-)

      . . . The Troubadour is a Jew himself (and an American), you are going to have an even harder time making the case that he was arguing that Jews can't be real Americans.

      VB's problem with The Troub's diary was that TT insinuated in his diary that the Israeli Lobby in general and AIPAC in particular wield disproportionate influence upon our congresscritters.  TT used the graphs showing how much more often Israel was mentioned than any other issue in the Hagel Confirmation Hearings as an example of this.  VB has long (more than a year, at least) held the position that anybody who questions the power level of the Israel Lobby is pushing the (completely ridiculous) idea that the US suffers from a Zionist Occupied Government (or, "ZOG").  It was VB's way of defending the Israeli Lobby's ability to have its impact on US policy and US policy makers.

      The fact is that every lobby in DC has at least some influence, or they wouldn't exist for very long.  Some lobbies are more powerful than others.  The NRA certainly holds a disproportionate amount of sway with our government.  Some other nations (China, the Saudis, etc.) also have well-funded and well-organized lobbies in our nation's capitol.  One of these very powerful lobbies in DC is the Israel Lobby.  This is a fact.  It is widely-known and broadly-recognized that the Israel Lobby is one of the 10 most powerful lobbies in DC.  Only the most radical of those who wish this lobby to continue to be so very powerful and perhaps even grow in strength are the ones who equate criticism of that lobby's power with antisemitism and/or ZOG.

      It is certainly permissible to discuss this lobby and how powerful they are without being an antisemite or holding the position that we have a ZOG.  It is certainly permissible to discuss whether or not this lobby wields a disproportionate amount of power without being an antisemite or making the claim that there is a ZOG in the USA.

      VB, however, did not want these things to be discussed.  This is why he tried the sickening tactic of saying that TT's diary sounded like something out of The Protocols.  It was an obvious attempt to at least shut down the discussion and probably to hijack the diary away from a calm and meaningful discussion of these topics.  It succeeded, but at the cost of VB's ratings ability.

      Being punished for what he did in TT's diary made VB understandably upset, but his loss of ratings ability was entirely appropriate.  The real problem for VB arose when he decided that he disagreed with his punishment so vehemently that he just had to write the diary under which we are commenting.  This diary is what caused him to be banned.

      I hope this helps your understanding of the situation.

      Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 02:59:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent Summary (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Celtic Merlin, Smoh

        Thanks

        The White Race can not survive without dairy products - Herbert Hoover (-8.75,-8.36)

        by alain2112 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 04:53:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Diane Gee, Smoh

          I've known VB pretty well for several years and I have met The Troubadour in person.  I've had lengthy conversations with both men.

          The Troubadour is a fine man and an all-round good person.  I respect him.  Read his diaries.  They give a person a good sense of the kind of person he is.

          VB used to be a reasonable man.  He has, as of late, radicalized himself.  This GBCW diary is what he has become.  The man I met more than 4 years ago would never have typed this shitty mess and then posted it.

          Celtic Merlin
          Carlinist

          Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

          by Celtic Merlin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 05:03:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  First, and let be clear... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL

        ... that I am not a "fan" of TT - TT is an AMERICAN and he is also Jewish.  The same can be said of all of us who were born and raised in this country that are Jewish.  We are American Jews.

        Second, in TT's diary it was not "insinuated" that "the Israeli Lobby in general and AIPAC in particular wield disproportionate influence upon our congresscritters".  It was stated as fact, for example:

        The reason for this disproportionate, obsessive focus on Israel with no regard for U.S. troops in Afghanistan? Simple: AIPAC and the "pro-Israel" lobby's...
        Also stated as fact was:
        when the hawkish, "pro-Israel" lobby in America can influence our representatives to sound as if they – well – are representing Israel's citizens more than our own
        Third, Vb never:
        VB has long (more than a year, at least) held the position that anybody who questions the power level of the Israel Lobby is pushing the (completely ridiculous) idea that the US suffers from a Zionist Occupied Government (or, "ZOG")
        If you read the diary in question you will see that he indicates that he is not a fan of AIPAC.  His point was that there could be other reasons for the line of questions during the hearings other than AIPAC.  He felt that as Progressives it was important to look at those other reasons for the tenor of the hearings, rather than an it's "Simple: AIPAC" reason.

        Fourth, this is from Wikipedia:

        The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies.
        Lastly, it was the donuts that arose from his comments in TT's diary that caused his banning - he was NR'd before this diary was posted.  This diary was published when he knew what was going to happen next.

        VB was a good Kossack.  "Insinuation" or "personal beliefs" or "hearsay" presented as fact needs to be called out on this site - regardless of the issue.  Do you agree?

        THAT is what happened here.

        I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

        by Hey338Too on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 05:51:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Accusing someone of believing "ZOG" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco, Celtic Merlin

        has long been a dog-whistle on this site for smearing a user as a neo-nazi sympathizer (because apparently, ZOG is a popular term at Stormfront).  In 2007, one of our early Palestinian-American posters, umkhalil, was banned from this site after only a few weeks here because of something she had written on her own blog two years prior -- saying that ours is a zog (lower-case).  Pro-Israel commenters who had found that old comment on her blog used that to paint her as an anti-Semite, as well as the flamewars in the comments sections of her diaries, in convincing the admins that she should be banned.

        It isn't nice to go to jail ... but if that's freedom's price

        by Rusty Pipes on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:01:25 AM PST

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        •  Accusations have been made, in general, of ZOG (0+ / 0-)

          when the person has actually engaged in such CT.

          It is awful how many times such a crackpot theory is advanced on this site.

          Just awful.

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