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View Diary: Closely-Watched Court Decision Breaks Bad for Wall St. Has A Day of Reckoning Arrived? (154 comments)

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  •  Borrowers sign contracts with lenders. Why (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, Paper Cup

    shouldn't they be responsible? Or do you think that everyone is such an idiot that they can't possibly understand what they are signing?

    •  They have gotten so good at writing contracts (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, BYw, Woody, lostinamerica

      that not even a team of the best lawyers in the country can understand them in many cases.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 01:19:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then people shouldn't sign them. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paper Cup, soros
        •  The problem is that the contract will appear (5+ / 0-)

          to say one thing but thanks to clever wording actually end up meaning something completely different.  That used to be considered theft by fraud, scheme, or device to deliberately make a deceptive contract but I guess that is just the way it is nowadays.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 04:43:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry I was the ONE attorney in (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FG

            a Commercial loan to spend 10 hours going through about 1000 pages to figure out that someone should not have been foreclosed on.

            Back in the day you had an argument. We inherited that idea. That you had equal bargaining power. You don't like the terms, you go elsewhere. Today? Not so much. They are what the law calls Adhesive. You are stuck with it because nomatter what you'll get the same. . . .

            Even if you're taking out a 20 million dollar loan you have no bargaining power.

            You think anyone actually reads everything they sign? Another fallacy the law should do away with.

            Bargaining power is flat out not what we have from English Common Law.

            Can you go into Macy's even and say "I think this shirt is worth 1/2" I'll take it? That's the idea those contract principles are based on. And that they'll listen not laugh. Maybe in 1812, not in 2013.

          •  It does happen. But most of the time the contract (0+ / 0-)

            terms are fairly clear. If you have a balloon loan, you can see it. People just thought they would flip a house a few years later.

      •  Then don't sign it (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk, soros

        It's as simple as that. You want to absolve people for being too stupid to understand what they're signing, and foist the blame onto someone else? Seriously?

        •  So only the rich and (9+ / 0-)

          those who are capable of reading legal documents designed to be confusing to the layperson are allowed to buy homes? How very American of you.

          "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

          by bryduck on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 03:23:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You don't get it (0+ / 0-)

            If you don't understand what's written in a document, ask for clarification. That's why people hire lawyers. And if some of these people didn't have the good sense to engage an attorney for advice on the "confusing" words.... well I won't go so far as to say they got what they deserved, but yeah, it's a possibility.

            •  Ok, so only the rich. (0+ / 0-)

              I don't know anybody of less-than-serious wealth that can afford to hire a lawyer unless they are faced with prison, and even then, most people get a PD. And how very presumptuous of you to think that people didn't/don't "ask for clarification--most likely from "their" agent, who has not one iota of incentive to dissuade anyone from paying their commission.
              Buying a house/piece of land is the central facet to "The American Dream", and restricting it in any way other than the cost of the house/land itself runs counter to our nation's entire history.  You don't get it, I'm afraid.

              "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

              by bryduck on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:12:00 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You appear to have no problem with contracts (4+ / 0-)

          written in such a way to appear to say one thing but mean something entirely else then.  I don't know about you but I consider that fraud when you deliberately design a contract just so you can twist the wording later.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 04:42:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not at all (0+ / 0-)

            The contract means exactly what it says. If there are hidden traps in there then the responsibility to recognize that fact rests CLEARLY with whoever is asked to sign it. Blindly accepting the other party's explanation of terms and the fine print is a recipe for disaster in ALL contracts.

            People who don't hire a lawyer to scrutinize these binding multi-year obligation contracts are just asking for trouble. It appears many of them found it.

            Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and said, "Sign it." I'm sorry, I have little sympathy for people who don't have the common sense they were allegedly born with.

            •  You don't get it. It is entirely possible to bury (0+ / 0-)

              traps so well that even the best lawyers won't be able to find it even if they are looking for them.  Oh, and don't forget things like invisible ink or the digital equivalent using Javascript code and such to change a contract (as a PDF file) based on pre-calculated md5 collisions so that it can be "edited" later without invalidating the digital signature.

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 05:50:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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