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View Diary: Megan Phelps-Roper leaves Westboro Baptist Church (330 comments)

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  •  The way you are talking its as if they killed (24+ / 0-)

    people or something. Yes, what they did was horrible, yes she has a lot to do to make up for what she did. And yes I think we need to see a lot more than just a few apologies and TV appearances, or as Steveningen mentioned downthread, a tell all book. She needs to apologize to all of the families, and do some real good in the world to make up for it.

    But what is this about not wanting them to have forgiveness, for them to have eternal hell fire visited upon them? Isn't that just as bad as them? What about love and redemption?

    If someone falls, it shouldn't be the end of them forever. Those who fall farther have higher to climb to make up for it, but it doesn't mean they should be trapped in a bottomless pit of no return.

    •  Forgive them if you like. There are people who (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      averybird, Rich Boucher

      have personal, deep and long experience with this maniacs.

      They are evil bad people.   She might deserve forgiveness someday, but it isn't the first day she says "sorry;" not after leading and organizing their hate campaigns in a very active way.

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 09:01:43 PM PST

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      •  As I said, she has a ways to go (10+ / 0-)

        apologies to make, things to do, she has a ways to climb. But my reply was in response to someone saying that they should never have forgiveness ever, that it cannot be had. I disagree strongly with such a stance.

        Yes, what she did was very wrong, and as I mentioned in my comment, there is definitely work to be done to be absolved of what she has done. But I simply disagree with the notion that she should never be forgiven no matter what she does to make up for it.

        •  well.... I personally don't feel bound to forgive (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          averybird, OleHippieChick

          anyone, regardless.  Of course, I was a personal target.

          I actually have doubts that it is possible to make up for what she's done.  What about the parents of the children whose funerals were picketed who have since passed away?  How do you make up for the hurt you caused those people?  What about the horrified grandparents who didn't think there were people so horrible anywhere in the world, upon walking out of their loved one's church and seeing GOD HATES F@GS! or F@GGOTS BURN IN HELL!

          What about their children, now possibly orphans, who witnessed that?  Matthew Shepards' friends and family?  

          That's a pretty big row to hoe.  Maybe in 30-40 years, I'll rethink my position, if she proves not to be scamming us all again.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 09:28:21 PM PST

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          •  There is a reason that progressives (15+ / 0-)

            don't believe children should be sentenced as adults.  Yes, she is now an adult, however, she was brainwashed from childhood and forced as a child to do this stuff (forced through violence and total deprivation of any other ideas and influences.)  Her actions hurt people but she is also a victim of Phelps.  To realize this in her 20's is pretty brave and self-aware, which given the lack of contact with the larger culture, speaks highly of her.

            To hate her is to hate the wrong person. If you must hate, hate the man who warped and poisoned this child's life, and celebrate that she was able to see through it and leave.

            •  I don't need a lecture from you on what this (5+ / 0-)

              family is like. Or what they did, when and to whom.  I lived with their vile attacks, in person, for years. One of their family members (neighbors said it was several) literally nailed a threatening letter to the front door of my house.

              I didn't say I hate her, but that's a long way from saying I forgive her, period.

              You're pretty quick to decide how "progressives" should behave in the face of evil.  Isn't another progressive value that we don't believe in telling other people how to think and feel?

              You don't know that she was brainwashed (although that is highly likely). All you know is that she now, allegedly, reportedly, wishes to escape this evil cult.

              If she is truly repentant, good for her, but forgiveness by her victims is still a leap that you do not get to decide for others.

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 11:43:48 PM PST

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              •  Nobody is trying to decide for others (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LSophia, YucatanMan, Lonely Texan

                I think those arguing with you are trying to express a wish for both her AND you, each of you in your own time and --  at least in the short term -- according to your will.

                I say "short term" because I had no intention of ever forgiving my torturer, EVER. It was inconceivable to me. And one day when I was about 55, I thought of him and it dawned on me that forgiveness had happened without my attention or volition. Well, dammit....

                Peace out.

                YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

                by raincrow on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:37:55 AM PST

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            •  Nothing personal. But seriously. n/t (0+ / 0-)

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 11:44:11 PM PST

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              •  I do know. I grew up in a situation very (20+ / 0-)

                much like hers.  I'm truly sorry for the pain you suffered from the actions of this group and yes, it is evil.  Absolutely. And forgiveness is not something I can compel anyone to do, nor was that my intent.  My intent was to suggest that the blame lies with the cult leader.

                I'm not telling you how to feel, or think.  But I do have a right to say how I think also, and feel, as it is highly personal to me, since I know how patriarchal cults work, on a deeply personal level.

                I know that I personally, was 35 before I was mentally an adult, due to being raised in a very similar manner to her.  (Although I never picketed anything, or spread hate in such a way, because it wasn't required, I was not aware that parents didn't make dictate the world for children until well into my 20's.) I'd like to extend the same benefit of the doubt to her that I needed.

            •  One thing I feel is important to mention. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YucatanMan

              While her statement did strike me as sincere, I find it interesting that even though she says she regrets hurting people, she can't say that she would go back and change her life.

              I'm sorry, but you regret doing what you did, but wouldn't change it?

              •  Yeah, her statement is super messed up (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MichiganGirl

                because she is messed up imo.  It took me twenty years to go from "My parents are wrong about some things and I want to live differently" to "My parents are truly evil".  Not only was she brainwashed, but by her parents.  That bond is astoundingly strong.  And all sorts of developmental processes now have to happen that should have happened at a younger age.  We may never get to hear or see where she goes, developmentally.  But it will take a long long time.

                •  It just seems (0+ / 0-)

                  disningenuous to me to say that you know now that what you did was wrong, but you wouldn't go back and change what you did.

                  •  I can understand the thought process.. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LSophia, Cassandra Waites

                    I have watched some documentaries on the Phelps clan, and it is a VERY abusive group, even among its own.

                    So yeah, I can see how it is possible for her to feel bad for the things that she did, but wouldn't go back and change it, because it seems entirely likely that if she had done things differently, she, her sisters, other loved ones, etc. would have been punished, and punished severely.

                    Note how she waited until her sister was of legal age until she left, so she could take her with her....

                    I even have a personal antidote from within my family that sort of follows the same line...

                    One of my Aunties found out her husband was molesting her daughters. They were both under the age of 5.

                    She shot and killed him, went to prison. Spent the full 25 year sentence, because when she went up for parole when they asked if she had the chance if she would change what she did, and she always said "no"...

                    She to this very day says she regrets killing him, because she missed such a huge chunk of her daughter's lives wasn't there when her grandbabies were born, etc.... but she also says that she would never change what she did either, because for her, at the time; it was the only acceptable option she had available.

                    The laws were different then, children didn't have the legal protections they have now. This was back in the late 50's, if she tried to divorce him more likely than not, he'd of ended up with the kids.

                    Sometimes people do bad things to protect their loved ones, they may regret those actions because they knew they were wrong.... but they'd do it again in a heartbeat too, because that was what they had to do.

                    I think that may be the case here, judging by her timing, waiting until she could legally take her little sister with her.

                    "It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." Oscar Wilde, 1891

                    by MichiganGirl on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 08:09:53 PM PST

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      •  Everyone's going to have a different yardstick. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan, Lonely Texan

        Just as repentance is difficult for many, so too is forgiveness.

        Some feel that simply walking away from the hurtful/wrong actions earns forgiveness, while others want/need to see a more active and/or public atonement from the person who wronged them.  For some, forgiveness will simply never be possible, regardless of the actions later taken by the person who hurt them.  All of these reactions fall on the spectrum of "human nature." We should keep that in mind as we read each other's responses.

        Let's see what she does after she spend a little time putting down roots in reality.

        •  yes, time will tell the nature of this. n/t (0+ / 0-)

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 12:21:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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