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  •  I am not saying anything about precedence (30+ / 0-)

    but I will tell you that advances in social legislation came about less because of reasoned argumentation and more  because people were shocked

    that in part was the lesson of the Civil Rights Movement, including Birmingham and Selma

    it is already part of the impact of the events of12/14

    but too many are still NOT confronting the reality

    we hear about 11 wounds to one small body from an assault weapon with no useful purpose except to kill full-sized adults with a single round.

    We may grasp that intellectually, but we do not fully comprehend.

    If his parents are willing to make the image available we should see it.

    that is what Emmett Till's mother decided, and it had an impact.

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:10:30 AM PST

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    •  I understand your point... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib, annecros

      ...and I can see the appeal of seeing the children shot at Newtown as latter-day Emmett Tills, whose gruesome murders lead to policy change.

      Unfortunately, those who favor the criminalization of abortion also see the fetuses pictured in their gruesome displays as latter-day Emmett Tills, with those pictures leading to policy change. They too say that those who favor reproductive rights aren't "confronting the reality" of abortion, that we "grasp that intellectually, but we do not fully comprehend."

      What differentiates your desire to publicly display these children's mutilated bodies as a means of shocking people into changing their opinions, and abortion-criminalizers' display of aborted fetuses as a means of shocking people into changing their opinions?

      That's why I find this line of argument somewhat problematic, despite my agreement with your advocacy for more gun safety regulations.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:28:24 AM PST

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      •  I suppose the difference (11+ / 0-)

        is that there are not 1,000,000 sterilized images presented to Americans in the form of fun and exciting realistic abortion video games and millions of dollars of special effects for this summer's blockbuster abortion movie or the new scary movie aimed directly at teens that shows a dozen creatively gruesome super-realistic different methods to have all kinds of horrible abortions.

        What the anti-choice hatemongers do not understand is that everyone understands exactly what abortion is and NO ONE likes to imagine or fantasize about situations where they might be able to get one or play games pretending to have 20 or 30 of them.

        We get it.  Abortions are tragic.  We know this.  They don't accept that, but we do.

        Now, as for killing.....?

        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

        by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:46:30 AM PST

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        •  They don't think you do. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, Wisper
          We get it.  Abortions are tragic.  We know this.  They don't accept that, but we do.
          To their minds, if you really and truly "got" what abortions are like, then you wouldn't oppose criminalizing them—just as many here are arguing that if those who advocate AR-15s remaining legal really and truly "got" what happened to Noah Pozner's body, they would support making them illegal.

          Even if there aren't abortion video games, those who favor the criminalization of abortion think that the true effect of abortion is minimized just the same as many in this thread are arguing that the true effect of murder is minimized. To their minds, there may not be 1,000,000 sterilized images of abortion being presented to Americans each year, but there are 1,000,000 babies being murdered without it even being called murder. (Please note again, for the record, that I'm not agreeing with them or their views in the slightest.)

          They also think that those who want to keep abortion legal simply don't understand the effects of what they're advocating, in the same way that many in this thread are arguing that those who want to keep AR-15s legal simply don't understand the effects of what they're advocating.

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 09:56:56 AM PST

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          •  My point was to the visualiztion (8+ / 0-)

            I have no personal experience with abortion.  For one thing I am male, but furthermore I've never had to deal with this with a girlfriend or wife.

            And yet... I understand, I truly understand what abortion is.  The question is that I see it as a personal legal issue related to privacy and health care.  That opinion, as wrong as they think it is, is not one to be swayed by a visual image.  I am not opposed to abortion bans, as I would argue is true for virtually everyone, because I don't think its a big deal or that its some kind of minor procedure.

            But when we hear people, in their own words, talk about the need for larger weapons because presumably smaller weapons would not adequately protect them.  When they articulate the need to be able to fire 100 bullets, at an unrestricted rate of fire, because firing a few is simply not enough... THEN I see great value to show them what "not enough" and "inadequate" does to the flesh of a human being.

            It counters their argument directly.  And if they want to look at that and then try to make the argument that this is a price they are willing to pay for their FREEDOMZ then the argument, or what argument there is left to have, can proceed from there.

            Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

            by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:15:41 AM PST

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            •  They would say the same thing to you. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wisper
              But when we hear people, in their own words, talk about the need for larger weapons because presumably smaller weapons would not adequately protect them.  When they articulate the need to be able to fire 100 bullets, at an unrestricted rate of fire, because firing a few is simply not enough... THEN I see great value to show them what "not enough" and "inadequate" does to the flesh of a human being.
              And they would say that when they hear people, in their own words, talk about having a right to get an abortion or needing to get an abortion, they see great value in showing them what that abortion does to a fetus, which they see as a full-fledged human being.

              Just as you imply that if opponents of all gun restrictions truly knew "what 'not enough' and 'inadequate' does to the flesh of a human being" they would change their opinion on gun restrictions, so those who favor criminalizing abortion would say that if supporters of legal abortion truly understood what abortion was like, they would change their opinion on abortion.

              To the minds of those who favor criminalizing abortion, as with your implication, the fact that your/their hypothetical interlocutor persists in taking an opposing view on the issue is, in itself, sufficient evidence that the interlocutor doesn't really and truly understand the effects of their position, and thus needs to be reminded.

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:28:04 AM PST

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              •  James, you are parroting (9+ / 0-)

                The point is that there is no countervailing presentation of sanitized abortions.  There is no general sentiment to contradict.  NO ONE is out there pumping out millions of images, songs, messages, news, movies, and games talking about how fun and cool abortion is.  Their gruesome images are only underscoring an already accepted point:  Abortion is gruesome.

                This is why they NEVER want to have arguments about out-of-womb viability, constitutional rights, health care precedents, realistic exceptions about rape and incest.  Their argument is that we don't understand the BELIEF about the sacredness of life.  We don't accept what their faith in God tells them is TRUE.  And TRUE in a sacred sense that is not amenable to parsing or nuance. IT must be ALWAYS TRUE FOR EVERYONE.  Trying to debate or rationalize LIFE (LIFE!!!) only reinforces what they think is their entire point.

                What we are saying here is that these people that like to casually talk about gun death, that like to marginalize it to things that only happen to bad people like drug dealers or are only done be a few deranged psychopaths need to be corrected.  That is factually wrong.  We do not want them to understand our faith.  We do not want them to believe in the things we believe.  We want them to see the evidence that what they are talking about is WRONG.

                When someone says they need an assault weapon with a 30-round clip because the legal 10-bullet 9mm handgun is not enough should take a look at what an untrained shooter can do to a human body with a 10-bullet 9mm handgun.

                When they say we are seeking to ban a semi-automatic AR15 rifle firing .223 caliber bullets with a 3200ft/s muzzle velocity and a realistic rate of fire of 45-55 bullets per minute (or with a bump fire attachable stock, you could get 12 bullets per second if the barrel didnt overheat) just because we think they are a "scary looking gun" and not an actual threat then they should take a good long look at Noah Pozner .

                Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                by Wisper on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 10:44:19 AM PST

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    •  well, we should see what these guns do (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NancyWH, lotlizard

      to people in "authorized" situations as well.

      Just as we should see the results of land mines that maim children around the world.

      "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

      by fhcec on Thu Feb 07, 2013 at 11:36:17 AM PST

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