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View Diary: How to run a cash grab scam on Dailykos (342 comments)

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  •  OK, so here is the thing (23+ / 0-)

    I just went back and looked at the diary in question.

    I have no idea if it is genuine, all I can say is it seems to be for me. I tend to give benefit of the doubt in these situations. I don't have a great track record when it comes to judging these things, so take this with a grain of salt, but objectively speaking-So far I see nothing that would indicate he isn't being truthful about his situation.

    Having once been falsely accused of malfeasance and lying, in a very public and not very nice way, I have to tell you it is an awful feeling. Especially if you are a person who is invested in the community, and PvtJarhead seems to be, just as I was. And like him, I was going through some really heavy personal shit at the time, so having people I considered friends turn on me like that really, really sucked.

    Also, maybe it's worth stopping to consider that for most people going through heavy personal shit, your life is disrupted, and things get chaotic and confusing. If this plays out in public, people who are naturally skeptical to begin with may begin pick up on minor mistakes or inconsistencies that are simply a result of your mindset, and all of the sudden, everything you say is thrown under the magnifying glass. Everything you have ever said before, and everything you say from that point forward gets scrutinized and picked apart and then re-analysed to the point of absurdity. And once that train starts, there is no way to pull it back into the station. You are assumed to be guilty of something, because "where there is smoke there's fire" and "something is just hinky about this", and in the face of smoke and hinkiness, things like facts and proof don't really matter.

    In my case, even sending copies of notorized legal documents to the mods, and posting a diary with ridiculous amounts of personal information to serve as proof-from a copy of my drivers license to pictures of documents to screen-shots from my cell phone and recordings of voicemails-none of it made much difference. Because once I got branded a liar and a scam artist, as far as some people were concerned, anything and everything I said or did was just in furtherence of my great big scam, and proof of how "sophisticated" I was at running it. And in my case, I didn't even ask for any money!

    So I would just advise people to tread carefully here....objecting to money raising diaries on principal is one thing, and personally I'm at the point where I think that's probably the best solution.

    But accusing someone of lying to scam people out of money, especially when it comes to an issue this personal and difficult, that is a whole different ballgame...I would just make sure I was confident in my assessment before I went down that road.

    Just my $.02.

    You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

    by SwedishJewfish on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 09:22:51 PM PST

    •  thank you for posting this. (9+ / 0-)

      this type of diary is, for me, a type of "seinfeld syndrome" diary - one where it is easier to tear down others than to admit to one's own humanity and vulnerability... for, it it happens to "them" - it has to be their own fault - otherwise, the flip side of that is that such circumstances might happen to ME if the circumstances are truthful.

      judgemental posts cover a fear - it isn't up to me to define that fear in others - nor is it mine to assess blame to those in hard times.

      either i can help or not.

      when someone is wrongly accused, it is equally my responsibility to object - just as you have said very eloquently from your own horrible experience on this site.

      it is very difficult to stop the mistrust once it is stated - so making public proclamations without proof is so very wrong.  

      if one has suspicions, one has an obligation to provide truth before uttering those outloud.  why?  what if the accuser is wrong?  

      look at what happened to swedishjewfish!

      it took hard work to prove the nephew was a fake - it took the perseverance and dedication of people like glen the plumber to actually find the proof.  did glen come on this site and wildly accuse prior to finding that proof?  no - he did the responsible and honorable thing - he did the homework necessary to PROVE the nephew was fake.

      this diarist just hurls accusations and, imho, is worse than those accused of scamming because he has done harm without offering substance behind his attack.

      okay - i'm outta this diary - i've said enough here.  now is time for others to speak out.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Fri Feb 08, 2013 at 10:20:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not very smart (0+ / 0-)
      In my case, even sending copies of notorized legal documents to the mods, and posting a diary with ridiculous amounts of personal information to serve as proof-from a copy of my drivers license to pictures of documents to screen-shots from my cell phone and recordings of voicemails-none of it made much difference.
      I am literally laughing out loud. Please say you didn't actually do those things. On the internet. With strangers you don't really know. If you did then I don't know what to say except, wow.
      •  If you take the time to look at my signature (9+ / 0-)

        you will see that there is a link for a website-Tree Climbers. That would be the non-profit organization, that I founded along with another member of Daily Kos. Perhaps you are not aware that after writing this diary I received hundreds of emails from other sexual abuse survivors, and that as a result of that outpouring we started a group here on Daily Kos for people who had been through childhood trauma.  The charity was a result of that. Many people have donated time and money to support us. Many people have also confided very painful, personal secrets to me because they read my story and felt comfortable talking, sometimes for the first time in decades, about what happened to them. My ID was outed by a crazy Penn State fan,  and once that happened, the cat was out of the bag and I decided to embrace it. I "went public" with my true identity when we went public with the charity. It's part of being an advocate, I decided to make it an empowering thing. So I've been "out there" in the public square for a while now. It's a little beyond "strangers on the internet" for me.

        Apparently you were not around for any of the drama that came as a result of me vouching for someone who ended up being not just a troll, but an outright psychopath, or the absolute chaos that ensued when he was finally outed as not being the poor persecuted teenage gay nephew of another poster named Florida4Obama (a middle aged woman in Florida) and that in fact both persona's were the same person-a heterosexual republican trust fund manager with a rather disturbing criminal history. This person created such absolute chaos that the entire site erupted into something i don't even know how to describe-but because I vouched for him, and because of how insane everything was, and because I ended up "disappearing" for 3 days (I was actually in the hospital) all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories took off and spiraled out of control.The prevailing theory was that "The Nephew" and I were the same person, or at least in cahoots, and along with my co-founder Roxine (and maybe others!) part of an elaborate scam to bilk the entire site out of money, and perhaps also right wing operatives trying to destroy the community from the inside out. Front pagers accused the charity of being fraudulant, people who confided these painful things to me felt betrayed and angry, in short, all kinds of hell broke loose and it was an absolute nightmare. And this is the condensed version.

        So yes, in an effort to clear my name-Mainly for the sake of the non-profit that my partner and I worked our asses off to create, that people here contributed to in good faith, and on behalf of all those sexual abuse survivors who had trusted and confided in me, I did everything within my power to prove that I was exactly who I said i was all along, and none of the accusations had any basis in reality. So I provided the admins with a copy of the police report showing that there was an investigation into criminal behavior by the "man" behind the "Nephew" hoax, also definitively proving we were not the same person, as well as documents that showed Tree Climbers was a legitimate 501(c)3 non-profit organization, proving that I was who I said I was all along. I was open and transparent and told them anything they needed from me, I would provide it. For whatever reason, they chose not to say anything publicly so the speculation and rumor mongering not only continued but got worse, until I finally threw up my hands and just posted a bunch of the proof in a diary. It's right there in my diary history-"For the record". And then I left for a long time. And now I'm back, but proceeding with caution from now on. I do not post about things that are personal anymore, about the realities of sexual abuse, and I don't know if I will again, at least not here. It's pretty hard to talk about in the first place, and once you have the most painful, horrible shit that has ever happened to you thrown back up in your face, and you get called a liar, a sociopath, even a pedophile, it's almost impossible to open up again. This entire fiasco had a chilling effect, overall, on a lot of rape and sexual trauma survivors on this site, beyond just me. It is not the protected space it once was to talk about the really difficult stuff, and many people left after what happened and never came back. That is what makes me the saddest. A lot of people were hurt, and I feel guilty about that to this day.  

        So hey, it was not the proudest, or perhaps SMARTEST moment of my life, but I'm glad you got a good laugh out of it.

        You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

        by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 02:03:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You might want to update the Treeclimbers site (5+ / 0-)

          because it still says 501(c)3 non-profit status is pending on the donation link. You'd get more donations to your charity that way.
          Also it would be good if you updated the blog and other pages too. It's been the exact same page w/ no updated info since the Sandusky trial.
          It would appear to be a outdated or dead page to anyone first seeing it.

          Also that one pic of the mans middle finger being held by the child is something I would consider to be a trigger for anyone that had been molested by an older trusted individual.

          •  It still says 501(c)(3) pending because it is. (5+ / 0-)

            We submitted our application to the IRS in April of last year.  

            Today on the IRS website (which I check hourly) it says

            Currently, we are assigning applications received in March 2012

            We will be filing our 990 by its due date, May 15, 2013

            e-Postcard (Form 990-N) - Electronic Filing Requirement for Small Tax-Exempt Organizations - Annual Electronic Notice: Small tax-exempt organizations (those normally with annual gross receipts up to $25,000 ($50,000 for tax years ending on or after December 31, 2010) may be required to file an annual electronic notice

            Due Date of the e-Postcard
            The e-Postcard is due every year by the 15th day of the 5th month after the close of your tax year.

            Thank you for your other suggestions.  I'm sure once we are fully operational, our website will be updated on a more regular basis.  Currently, we are working behind the scenes with victims of the Boy Scouts of America, the Catholic Church, and individual familial abuse.  We are also working on finding government grants we qualify for and are preparing documents to apply for those.  

            Although we can act as a fully-functioning 501(c)(3) including donations while waiting for our determination letter,we are proceeding with caution to ensure we have everything in place.  This is too important to both of us to rush the process.  We are at the mercy of the IRS.  Because we have the educational scholarship piece to our organization, ensuring that our application/screening process is fully vetted by the IRS is imperative to my future plans of working with Universities on scholarships/endowments/etc.

            As soon as we get the determination letter from the IRS, we will launch a national fund-raising campaign and begin accepting applications for scholarships.  

            Thank you,
            Roxine

            PS As for the picture there are many things on our website that are triggering.  Have you watched the video on the front page?  Being triggered is a part of being a victim/survivor - however, we can't bury the truth of what child sexual abuse looks like and it looks just like the picture you are referring to.  A trusted adult who takes advantage of an innocent child.  Mine was my grandfather.  Can't get more trusted than that can you?

            "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

            by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 07:14:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  It IS still pending (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roxine, Free Jazz at High Noon, edrie

            I don't know if you have ever been through the process of getting IRS approval for any kind of organization, but it doesn't happen overnight. We are legally allowed to operate as a 501(c)3 until the approval comes through. Until that happens we are not actively fundraising, and we keep the disclaimer there (even though we aren't required to legally).

            No the website is not as current as it should be because I'm the webmaster and responsible for updating content including the blog, and I haven't been able to go on there since all this happened. You are actually the first person to say that picture is triggering, but I'll take that into consideration.

            You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

            by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 07:48:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  see my comment above SJF - your call but I think (3+ / 0-)

              the picture is EXACTLY what people who aren't knowledgeable about CSA should be aware of.

              Good Morning by the way - glad to see you didn't lose power - i was worried about you guys all night.

              "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

              by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 07:55:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  We are completely snowed in (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Free Jazz at High Noon, edrie

                but still have power, as of right now (fingers crossed)

                I have honestly never seen this much snow before in my life....it's crazy

                You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

                by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 08:21:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We had "snowmagedden" here in the DC area (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SwedishJewfish, edrie

                  about 3-4(?) years ago - same scenario - two systems converged but then circled back - so we got like 40" on top of 30" or something ridiculous!

                  I have pictures - it was amazing how much snow we got.  We were trapped for 5 days because they just couldn't get all the streets cleared - but luckily we didn't lose power.

                  Hope yours stays on - take pictures!  We built snow forts and sled runs down the front hill - the banks were like 4 feet high on the sledding runs - so much fun.

                  "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

                  by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 08:36:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  By the way - we need to find a way to block the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SwedishJewfish, edrie

              spam that is infiltrating our comment sections.  I've been deleting them, but I still have like 4000 to delete!

              I will try to contact our service provider today and see if we can purchase something that will screen for that.  I would hate to lose a true comment in the slew of spam we're getting.

              "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

              by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 07:59:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  During your accusations upthread about FPers (0+ / 0-)

              saying that the website was fraudulent, which I never saw, but certainly could have missed, you mentioned that you sent them

              documents that showed Tree Climbers was a legitimate 501(c)3 non-profit organization
              If it is still pending, and I understand almost everything IRS related takes for fucking ever except when they want to come get your money, then that wouldn't have been a document that proved anything.

              I am aware that people can still donate when non profit status is pending but the tax deduction cannot be used until it is no longer pending. By your post I thought it had been authorized and not updated on the site. Both yours and Roxine's sigs are currently asking for support and donations with a link to the website so your are actively fundraising.

              During the time when you arrived and child abuse was such a strong topic on DK you and others were rightly going about posting about using trigger warnings so I was a little surprised to see that picture on the opening page of your website. As Roxine says above it is one of many things on the site that are triggering and that it can't be helped if the subject is to be dealt with. I understand that, but that one picture in particular set off all sorts of things in me and totally turned me off of the website.
              It is very nearly pornographic.

              Also some of the pictures of dead and mutilated people in one of your earlier blog posts does not relay a feeling of the website being a safe place for anyone that may stumble on them.

              •  What picture? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Roxine, SwedishJewfish, edrie

                I went to the Tree Climbers website and I can't see any picture that is offensive or triggering. I clicked on all the navigation tabs and couldn't find anything "nearly pornographic".

                As someone with PTSD from childhood abuse I have always found Swedish Jewfish to be particularly consistent with providing trigger warnings.  I don't understand your comments at all.

              •  I'm sorry it triggered you like that (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Roxine, S F Hippie, edrie

                It's a picture of a man holding a child's hand, leading them somewhere. It would be totally innocuous for most people, even cute. (IIRC, it's a stock photo found under the theme "father and child") which is why it was used to illustrate the concept of children being abused most often by those they trust. I don't see how it could be called "pornographic", but again, sorry if brought up stuff like that for you.

                As far as "mutilated and dead bodies" I assume you are talking about the photos of the Mei Lei Massacre and Emmitt Till. Those are both historical photo's that have been widely seen. There are trigger warnings.

                In any case, we have never been a warm and fuzzy, save the children organization or one that aims to dilute or sanitize the realities of child rape, we are about advocacy first and foremost. Sometimes that means speaking uncomfortable truths, or writing about things that are considered taboo, using language that may make people feel squeamish. It is not for everyone. There is no one size fits all approach when it comes to this issue. But for every person who is turned off by it, there are many who feel liberated by it and appreciate the frankness and honesty we use to approach this topic. We are always looking to improve though, so again I'll take your criticisms into consideration when we revamp the site.

                As for actively fundraising by virtue of a link in our signature, I think we may have a different definition of what that means. Suffice it to say, we really do not generate donations from this site...I can't remember the last time we have. That isn't why either one of us are here, or else you would see us holding fundraising diaries and actively seeking out financial contributions.  

                You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

                by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 08:56:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  well (0+ / 0-)

                  I do think you should take some of this into consideration.
                  That man's hand is in an unnatural position as far as I'm concerned. Try it. I held my dad's index finger.
                  As for the pics of Mei Lei and Emmett Till
                  When i saw them I had just scrolled through the blog looking for recent posts and came across the pics of the dead. So there was no warning that I saw. It may be there but I didn't see it just scrolling through. You might take that into consideration and bury some of that stuff behind links.

                  But more to the point regarding your actions on this website, I  think that you should stop repetitively stating that FPers accused you of fraud without links showing just that. I think it's more a matter of ignoring your pleas for confirmation from what I've seen. If you want to use the site to further your cause it would be better if you didn't try to make the staff look bad.

                  I wish you the best of luck for whatever good you and Roxine can accomplish with your charity.

                  •  Well to be clear (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edrie

                    I was referring to the post by KJG.  Perhaps I should have said "a front pager" instead of "front pagers" which could be construed as plural. There was one other FP'er who got involved in some of the mud-slinging, but I don't remember what they said specifically, and don't really care to.

                    I take issue with how the staff handled this situation, and have made that very clear to them both privately and publicly. I was begging them to intervene from the moment I got confirmation that TN was behind the whole "stalker" thing, because I knew  once that came out all hell was going to break loose. I think the way they handled the entire ordeal was a disservice not just to me but every member of this site. I no longer consider this a platform for my cause, certainly not the charity. I've been meaning to change my signature anyways, since I don't want those two parts of my life co-mingling anymore.

                    But in any case, thanks for the well wishes, and I will see what I can do about providing more layers of warning over certain parts of the site. That seems like a reasonable solution.

                    You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

                    by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 10:45:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Allegations of fraud by front pagers? (3+ / 0-)

          Do you have links to those allegations?  I know of one comment by a single front pager in last summer's debacle and it was this by Kaili Joy to Roxine:

          Ugh. Just stop it!(89+ / 0-)

          I have kept my mouth shut on this until now, but ugh. Ugh!

          And let me be very clear: I'm not involved in any way with anything on the admin side with regard to this situation, so I don't know anything more than what everyone else here knows.

          But you know what? I'm really sick of people who showed up here half a second ago vouching for each other, as if their word is proof. I don't know who you are, I don't care who you are, and the fact that you vouch for someone else here—someone whose behavior has been, at best, erratic, inconsistent, and disruptive and, at worst, part of this whole bullshit scam of "aunts" and "nephews" and "pigs" and lord knows what else—means absolutely nothing to me. Nothing. And linking to a Facebook page or giving a phone number isn't proof either.

          I'm so sick of this crap, I can't stand it. You may very well be who you say you are, and you may very well be doing all the good work you claim to be doing (though, to be quite honest, by looking at the website of your foundation, I've got some real questions about that too), but if that's really your life purpose, then feeding into some meta drama crap by insisting that your friend SJF—who has certainly added to this drama by her own choice and offered an awful lot of very inconsistent and totally unsubstantiated information that she claims is "proof" but doesn't prove a single damned thing—isn't protecting a single child or helping a single victim.

          If that really is your purpose here at Daily Kos, I very strongly recommend you stick to that.

          by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Jul 14, 2012 at 02:41:04 PM EDT

          What, besides Kaili saying she's "got some real questions about" Tree Climbers based on its website, have front pagers said?
          •  I believe there was one other person (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roxine, Free Jazz at High Noon, edrie

            I don't feel comfortable naming them without knowing for sure, and I'm not about to go back and look. I would have preferred to have never seen that comment again in my life, or any of them.

            I'm not going to rehash this. It's all still out there for anyone to view themselves if they are so inclined-the diaries, the comments, all of it. People are free to draw their own conclusions.

            You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

            by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 08:06:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I reported this to Markos and requested that it be (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SwedishJewfish, edrie

            deleted.  I do not appreciate you rehashing this here as it maligns a charity that is working to provide services to survivors of childhood sexual abuse.  

            It's a charity - if you don't believe in the mission of the charity, don't donate to it.  

            We are doing our very best to make something positive out of the shared horrors of our childhood.  Are we perfect?  No - we are human with warts and flaws and "issues" but we are working to help others because we think we can.  Will we succeed? Who knows? Most charities fail - there's a diary on the Rec list right now about one such charity that is closing its doors.  But if we can help ONE person - then we have succeeded.  And I know we have already done that- and we are working to help as many as we can.

            Forgive my rant - but you know what?  I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse - and yes, I get triggered.  And forgive me for responding to another post here, but I'm fairly sure they will see it -

            In response to Burned's comments regarding the "pornographic" picture:

            Burned - that picture?  That was me when I was a little girl.  My grandfather used to hold my hand and use his middle finger to stroke the middle of my palm - and do you know what that meant, Burned?  That was his "signal" to me - his "our little secret" signal - his way of telling me how "special" I was..

            It meant he was going to rape me again, or he was going to place his mouth on me and perform oral sex, or it meant that he was going to force his cock into my mouth - so YES it is triggering - but it is what childhood sexual abuse IS -

            It is the innocent hand-holding of a grandfather who routinely rapes and sodomizes his granddaughter.  It is the struggle that I have lived with my whole life.  

            In the words of Abraham Lincoln:

            “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.”

            "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

            by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 08:58:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks, and with that I'm done here (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Roxine, edrie

              No we are not perfect. We are trying to make something positive come from the negative (to put it mildly) things we have both lived through. It is not easy to do this work, but we do the best we can (btw-while I say "work", I would once again like to point out that neither one of us makes ANY money from this whatsoever, and we have been fully transparent about how our donations have been used-that information has been provided publicly and is available to those who inquire)

              Again, it is very simple-if you don't like the charity, don't donate. If you don't like a diary, or a diarist, don't read their diaries. If you don't like private fundraisers on Daily Kos, don't participate in them. People have free will, they can do as they please.

              And now I'm going to go use my free will to play with my kid in the snow. If anyone has further questions or "concerns", feel free to PM me.

              You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

              by SwedishJewfish on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 09:11:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Whoa, TRIGGER warning, please (4+ / 0-)

              you aren't the only one who gets triggered by these things and some days are worse than others.

              •  Sorry Wendy Slammo - I have tried to appropriately (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SwedishJewfish, edrie

                highlight the triggering comment.  I apologize if my rant affected you in any way.  As you say- some days are better than others.  Today, for me, is not a good day.

                "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

                by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 09:51:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  TRIGGER WARNING TO MY POST ABOVE n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie

              "...I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul" Invictus - William Ernest Henley Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

              by Roxine on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 09:41:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Um, all I asked was "who?" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JayRaye

              But as the young people say, it's all good.  

              Auf wiedersehen.

      •  Quick to judge, aren't you? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldSoldier99, edrie, SwedishJewfish

        „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

        by translatorpro on Sat Feb 09, 2013 at 03:30:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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