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View Diary: Obama's proposal to raise the minimum wage collides immediately with usual Republican malarkey (171 comments)

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  •  Here is why... (0+ / 0-)

    ...I leave the house vacant.

    1) A foreclosed house costs $20K and needs $10K in renovations to sell (or rent for the NPV of) $35k. About 75% of that cost is labor.

    2) If I buy this neighborhood-killing eyesore of a house, I can make money, and more housing becomes available for the community!

    3) You raise MW by $2 or 28%. Now my renovation costs are $2100 higher ($10k x 75% x 128%). I no longer make money.

    4) I don't buy the foreclosed house, it stays vacant, and continues to drag down the neighborhood. People who could have made $7/hr now make nothing. (Some of them may even rip the copper out of the house and sell it, but that's a different tale).

    These numbers are hypothetical, but not unrealistic.

    Why not let me pay the kids $7 and make up for it with food stamps, section 8, single-payer healthcare, etc? Why boot them out of the only job they're likely to get?

    •  You said (0+ / 0-)
      Why not let me pay the kids $7 and make up for it with food stamps, section 8, single-payer healthcare, etc? Why boot them out of the only job they're likely to get?
      See that's sort of the problem I think.

      I'm a democrat, but I really do think it's better to pay people a living wage rather than by taxing the rich, then using it to subsidize a business that pays substandard wages.

      Because that means the business actually using the labor is paying for it rather than some third party.

      Plus if you give workers the money rather than running it thru the middleman of the gov't is works better

      •  If you don't... (0+ / 0-)

        ...let me pay $7, I am gonna fire the 19-year olds and hire professional renovators. I have no choice.

        This means:

        1) Kids don't get jobs.
        2) Some houses remain vacant
        3) Taxpayers are still on the hook for the safety net benefits the kids will need.
        Pay particular attention to #3. You see, we are already shelling out for these guys. At least my way they can work, create something of value (which I will pay taxes on), and get training.

        If we use the minimum wage to price them out of the labor market, they have no options at all.

        •  Or (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          what whit, berrieh

          We could give the 19-year-olds training/university grants or any other number of different opportunities through social programs so they don't get taken advantage of by weasily slumlords trying to exploit desperate individuals for below-market wages.

          Totally different example by the way, not referring to you :P

          Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

          by aguadito on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 12:54:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm fine with that. (0+ / 0-)

            Because I'm a classy guy, I'll ignore your petty personal insults.

            But I wouldn't mind having more college graduates out there. College grads can afford higher rent.

            If my rents were higher, I could afford to pay more to renovate houses.

            See, that's the problem with increasing the Minimum Wage. You aren't making people more productive. You're just pretending that they are more productive.

            Send them to college and you actually make them more productive. But instead, we spin our wheels playing with the minimum wage...

        •  Good. Then the 19 year olds can make $9 an hour at (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Catte Nappe, Nada Lemming

          McDonalds and professional renovators can have the jobs at an even higher wage (truly skilled construction professionals aren't going to be going for $9/hour most of the time anyway). Win-win.

          •  These kids... (0+ / 0-)

            ...get rejected by McDonald's at $7/hr.

            What makes you think McD will suddenly hire them if the mandated wage is $9?

            I don't think people on this thread understand:
            I am dealing with the people that McDonald's turns away.

            These are the people who get hurt by minimum wage increases.

            •  I don't buy it. (0+ / 0-)

              If someone is literally unemployable after (or even during) high school, there should be some training available or we should better education. Because that's essentially what you're talking about: People who can't do extremely basic tasks.

              Really, a lower minimum wage doesn't HELP them - it keeps them stagnant with no skills, from your own description - and it HURTS the mostly employable minimum wage workforce.

      •  Problems are definitely bad enough, we need both (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TerryDarc, Nada Lemming

        actually all three - Tax the rich, single payer hc, AND a $21 minimum wage.

        And the reason is solely because the VERY rich, WallSt, LARGE corporations (esp. energy extractionists)- have moved essentially ALL the money upward and are stripping the economy and selling it off overseas like a stolen car in a chop shop - including natural resources, jobs, owed/evaded taxes, the laws, and our Democracy - AND the economy itself.

        No reaction or response to this is TOO radical.
        Unless of course one just doesn't care.

    •  Doesn't sound like a very socially (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rhytonen, BusyinCA

      important service you're providing anyway.

      at such low numbers, a buyer would just be willing to renovate themselves anyway.

      so you're just trying to middle and hustle in a market that doesn't have a bubble anymore. that's the crux of what you're presenting.

      find a new business. real estate is dead. move on already.

      you're trying to make yourself out to be this angel that goes around fixing dilapidated forcelosed homes and making them nice to help the neighborhood. that's a crock. you're profiting off of people screwed by the banksters. probably some guy who was underwater because of a lousy crooked mortgage broker pushing an ARM on him and the bank foreclosed on them. so dont act like you're performing some amazing service that requires that we give you some cheap laborer by subsidizing the wage with food stamps and section 8 etc.

      Those public services aren't meant to be provided so slumlords can get dirt-cheap labor. It's meant to be supplemental to a dignifying wage for all laborers, regardless of skill.

      anyway, get a new hustle, as i said before.

      Deficits don't matter, jobs do.

      by aguadito on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 12:51:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're wrong. (0+ / 0-)

        My tenants can't get credit to buy.

        Yeah, the banks made a mess, and somebody's gotta clean it up. That's what I'm doing.

        •  Where Do You Sell Houses For $35k? (0+ / 0-)

          Or apts. or whatever? I see your handle but where do you do business for that little money?

          Time is an enormous, long river, and I’m standing in it, just as you’re standing in it. My elders are the tributaries, and everything they thought and every struggle they went through & everything they gave their lives to flows down to me-Utah Phillips

          by TerryDarc on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 05:02:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't sell... (0+ / 0-)

            ...for $35k. I rent. The value of the total rental stream is about $35k.

            I do this in poor communities on the Eastern Seaboard. Not NYC.

            •  So For 35K ROI Should Be What Per Month? (0+ / 0-)

              But you said in your numbers above that the housing was worth $35 and implied it wasn't worth your while.

              You're actually getting some fair %age of $35k/year I'd guess, at least 10-12%, hmmm-tedum...$300-400 per month?! You rent for that?!

              Cuz if it's more, you could afford to PAY more per hour, no?

              Time is an enormous, long river, and I’m standing in it, just as you’re standing in it. My elders are the tributaries, and everything they thought and every struggle they went through & everything they gave their lives to flows down to me-Utah Phillips

              by TerryDarc on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 05:18:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  The Walmart business model? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      berrieh, schnecke21
      make up for it with food stamps, section 8, single-payer healthcare, etc?
      You admit your guys need quite a bit more than $7/hr; but you don't want to pay it - you want others to pay it for you.

      "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

      by Catte Nappe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 01:20:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (0+ / 0-)

        Why?

        Because we are paying anyway.

        At least by letting people get jobs, they can get some training, and they can produce something. Something that can be taxed, so we can continue to fund and expand the safety net.

        •  You realize you wouldn't be paying anyway? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          roadbear

          If people made, at minimum, enough to maintain basic living conditions; then you wouldn't be paying so much for those "benefits" that require your employees to grovel through an application process to find out if they can qualify for some small bit of assistance. And things may be different where you are, but where I am that kid you are underpaying can only get Food Stamps for 3 months in any three year period. He can't get Section 8 at all. And,as you well know, there is no single-payer healthcare, so you aren't paying for that, and he isn't getting it, either.

          "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

          by Catte Nappe on Wed Feb 13, 2013 at 04:35:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That is why... (0+ / 0-)

            ...we need to spend our political capital building out the safety net instead of playing minimum wage games.

            •  Needn't be either/or (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              worldlotus

              I'm on board for "both". Balanced approach.

              "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

              by Catte Nappe on Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 08:19:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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