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View Diary: Pres. Obama's Big Oil host has history of war profiteering, discrimination (Updated/Action) (284 comments)

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  •  I haven't seen you name any of them (1+ / 0-)
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    joanneleon

    You could at least point to a comment where you've done so.  And I'd add that this doesn't have to be the only thing we focus on.  And there are in fact people focusing on more than just this.  KXL is the primary national issue right now, there are plenty of fights at the state level that are ongoing.

    •  A problem is when this backfires (0+ / 0-)
      KXL is the primary national issue right now,
      perhaps gently, perhaps spectacularly, how often can one go to the well and rile up the base?  

      you know, the "boy who cried wolf" story comes to mind . .

      As does PETA's debacle wrt horse slaughterhouses.

      In any event, the only thing that is guaranteed to reduce demand is a carbon tax with teeth  - my recommendation is an escalating (i.e., cumulative) $0.25 per gallon (or gallon equivalent for coal or NG) a year.

      That would not immediately stymie the economy considering that larger fluctuations occur naturally - i.e., time would be built in to adjust/adopt new technologies.

      but over time - e.g., $2.50  / gal in a decade or $5 /gal in 20 years - the continued use of carbon based fuels could simply not compete with cheaper alternatives and would be discontinued.

      •  So your alternative is something (0+ / 0-)

        That at very best won't happen until 2016. So what you're really advising is inaction at the national level. We can't tell people that the fight against climate change is the most important issue in our time, and it really is, and then tell them that they should just change their lightbulbs and hope that congress eventually get around to acting on it. That guarantees failure and failure is unacceptable on this issue. Even if you're right and KXL doesn't matter at all to carbon emissions it still matters as a victory to the movement and winning is vital for that reason alone. We need to win this for morale reasons if nothing else.

        •  It's a Pyrrhic victory at best (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FG

          or more likely, an absolute debacle.  Seriously, a decade from now when 4,000,000 bbls/day of crude oil is being moved about North America by rail with the huge increase in pollution, energy, spills, etc that that entails, environmentalists may very well be begging for pipelines  to ameliorate the situation, just like PETA is now in favor of reopening horse slaughterhouses that they lobbied to close.

          The whole situation is also somewhat similar (but not nearly as significant) as when environmentalists shut down nuclear power construction a generation ago - which is the one thing that could have made a difference wrt global climate change.

          But everyone puts on their blinders and narrowly decides what's best for them (for Keystone protesters, their own egos, it seems, based on what you just said).  That's just human nature I guess.

          •  So (0+ / 0-)

            You don't have any effective actions to suggest. Good to know. And if you think a symbolic victory is Pyrrhic then you don't understand how organizing works.

            •  My "effective action" is to (0+ / 0-)

              first of all - NOT MAKE THINGS WORSE

              second, lobby for effective policies (e.g., a carbon tax) at the governmental level - or even smaller token efforts like tax credits for electric cars - that's not much but if you want a symbolic victory, it's * something * !

              And finally, do what I can at the local level (e.g., not drive at SUV myself, look mournfully and shamefully at my neighbors when * they * drive by in their SUV, and that type of thing).

              •  What action are you suggesting? (0+ / 0-)

                Because I don't see any action suggestions, just stuff that politicians should do.  There needs to be action on this and telling people to wait for politicians on the national level to act will be the death of us.

                And finally, do what I can at the local level (e.g., not drive at SUV myself, look mournfully and shamefully at my neighbors when * they * drive by in their SUV, and that type of thing).
                I assume for now that everyone taking part in the conversation is doing something local as well, but we can't let localism lead to inaction at the national level.  If you're going to tell people to stop working on KXL, and again I think your claims about it being worse for it not to happen are nonsense, then you need something else for people to work on.  You keep failing to address that point and pretend like we can just tell people to hang out and "support" the movement by making mostly useless gestures.  There is a critical mass of people who are behind this and KXL is just the beginning.  There are going to be nay-sayers for every action, claiming it won't help or we won't be able to win.  This is just part of the fight.
      •  This action is a precursor to that (0+ / 0-)

        We need to have some public markers laid down that action is required.   Without showing of muscle, that tax never happens.  It would help if 350.org could take out earth burner politicians too

        Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

        by Mindful Nature on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 09:40:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Roadbed guy has emphasized (0+ / 0-)

      Efforts at curbing demand as targets.  I don't think they're as good from a political campaign standpoint, but he has put them forward

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 09:05:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not what I'm talking about (0+ / 0-)

        I agree that we need to act on demand as well, what I'm saying is that we need, absolutely need to have actions that people can take as a movement and not just as individuals.  Attacking demand is either a personal activity or an activity that relies on politicians.  We need more than that.  We need a victory and KXL can give us that.

        •  I'm in complete agreement (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          I just thought I'd help him out a little.  

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Thu Feb 21, 2013 at 10:50:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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