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View Diary: I Know You Think You Have a Constitutional Right to Vote - But You Really Don't. (160 comments)

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  •  You may not agree with Pluto (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BvueDem, Mnemosyne, poco, BlueDragon, a2nite

    Indeed, you may think his analysis was harsh ... that does not mean he was incorrect.

    Many of the countries you mention have LESS control over their citizens, not more, however repressive the regimes appear to be.

    In countries like Russia, for example, it isn't the law that is more repressive, it is the state of their economy.

    Few countries have anything like the Patriot Act which legally turns the US into a Police State.

    The fact that you are not seeing that state being exercised overtly does not mean that it doesn't exist.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 08:48:29 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Harsh analysis is fine; faulty analysis is not. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      twigg, AaronInSanDiego, Paul1a

      And "you'll just have to trust me" is a conversation-stopper.

      Here's a list of the countries I mentioned: Albania, Belarus, Bulgaria, Ecuador, Guatemala, Guyana, Mali, Moldova, Moldova, Mozambique, North Korea, Paraguay, PNG, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Suriname, the 'Stans (take your pick). Which 'many' of these have "LESS control over their citizens [than the US], not more"? Especially regarding the right to vote, which is the main topic of this diary.

      Most of the above-mentioned countries don't need a Patriot Act because they also don't have a Bill of Rights, nor our history of political freedom, however tarnished it is, nor our freedoms of press, however constrained by the 6-corporation oligopoly. (Saudi Arabia, for example, abolished slavery in 1962 -- better late than never.)

      Russia: Putin abolished elections for 'governors' in 2005, and appointed them himself. This is not economics, it is political, systemic, and the US has nothing like it. (It's unimaginable, here.) You'd prefer Russia's legal system, KBG and Siedkom (SKR) to our legal system, CIA and FBI? Please proceed.

      I have yet to meet a far-left critic who has worked for more than a year in a non-OECD country. (I'm excluding armed forces here, b/c their work environment is so constrained by the military that it's not really the same thing, although many of them feel the same way.) I've met many who arrived overseas that way -- and by the end of 3 years were much wiser and more appreciative of the USA.

      •  Well the non-OECD countries (3+ / 0-)

        are not really the ones we should be measuring against.

        You may tell me to proceed, but the fact remains that the US has more legal authority over its citizens than the USSR ever had.

        How are the repressive tactics being used to deny the opportunity to vote in the US any better than the tactics used in other countries? Just because we are more polite about it does not make it better.

        Virtually every amendment in the Bill of Rights, except the 2nd, is coming under fierce attack, if not outright gutting, to the point where they really don't exist as rights the citizens can reliably enforce.

        The only reason police actions are not being used to suppress people here in an overt manner is that there is no civil disobedience.

        Then I remember how ruthlessly the Occupy movement was suppressed.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 09:37:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  poppycock (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Paul1a
          the US has more legal authority over its citizens than the USSR ever had.
          That's one of the most ludicrous fallacies I've ever read. De facto authority is what matters, but even regarding de jure authority your assertion is absurd.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          etc.
          (Russian:
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/...
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/...
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/...
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/...
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/...
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/... )

          Your other comments are also balderdash. I will no longer engage in discussion with you on this topic.

          •  Yeah .. about the first link (0+ / 0-)

            you provided.

            Have you ever heard of Guantanamo Bay?

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 01:50:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your comments are not reality-based. (0+ / 0-)

              Gulag:

              In March 1940, there were 53 separate camps and 423 labor colonies in the USSR. ... Approximately 14 million people passed through the Gulag "labour camps" from 1929 to 1953. A further 6-7 million were deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR, and 4-5 million passed through "labour colonies". ...  However, taking into account that it was common practice to release prisoners who were either suffering from incurable diseases or on the point of death, the actual Gulag death toll was somewhat higher, amounting to 1,258,537 in 1934-53, or 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953. Some estimates for total number deaths in the Gulag go beyond 10 million.
              Guantanamo Bay:
              Since January 2002, 779 men have been brought to Guantanamo.
              •  How big does it have to be (0+ / 0-)

                before we decide it's a problem?

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                Who is twigg?

                by twigg on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 04:59:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  When do people learn (0+ / 0-)

                  that hyperbole weakens their arguments?

                  Comparing the 25 million people pushed through the Soviet gulag to the 779 men brought to Guantanamo isn't a minor error, it is absurd Stalinist propaganda.

                  Credibility isn't just important for grass-roots groups like DailyKos, it is nearly everything.

                  But now I see that you use provocative words in order to attract attention to yourself and your ideology, and not to advance the DailyKos agenda of electing more and better Democrats. This is not a Socialist website. You are an avowed and self-described Socialist, an apologist for Stalinist USSR, and I want nothing further to do with you. I hope you leave or are removed from DailyKos and find a socialist website that is more in keeping with your values and lies. Favorably comparing the USSR to the USA is inexcusable and unforgivable.

                  twigg writes:

                  "the fact remains that the US has more legal authority over its citizens than the USSR ever had."
                  •  Good Morning (0+ / 0-)

                    User 699128

                    Wanna put that to the vote?

                    I can see that you are determined to make your stay on this site a pleasant one, and I am not in the least concerned about your view of me or my reputation.

                    You might spend a little time getting to know those you recommend should leave ... more time that a three day old account suggests.

                    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                    Who is twigg?

                    by twigg on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 06:08:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Happily. Let's do so. (0+ / 0-)

                      All in favor of DailyKos becoming a Socialist website, seeking to elect Socialists? Speak up!

                      •  I'm just about done with you (0+ / 0-)

                        but you still haven't answered the question.

                        How big does a gulag have to be before you would consider it to be a problem?

                        Bye.

                        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                        Who is twigg?

                        by twigg on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 06:28:25 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I am done with you.Please don't reply to me again. (0+ / 0-)

                          I hear a chorus of crickets, all singing for DailyKos to become a Socialist website, dedicated to electing Socialists.

                          All those red friends of yours, speaking up in favor of your assertion that "the fact remains that the US has more legal authority over its citizens than the USSR ever had".

                          All of them supporting hyperbole as an effective political discourse. Unless Guantanamo is worse than the Soviet Gulag, then it's not a problem -- I see your 'logic.'

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