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View Diary: When gun control is outlawed... (144 comments)

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  •  The "gotcha" that I've seen mentioned (2+ / 0-)

    by some of these companies is that they are doing so to ensure compliance with the laws of that state.  The claim is that they have no way of ensuring that the sales are legitimate and no specific program in place to support making such a distinction.

    •  How can that be true - are you telling me (8+ / 0-)

      that we are supposed to believe that gun manufacturers don't have a way to validate who a purchase order is really coming from.

      If that's true, they have bigger business problems than any reasonable person would accept.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 01:40:47 PM PST

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    •  That they don't have a way to validate a state or (5+ / 0-)

      local LEO purchase order as opposed to a FFL or a non-LEO?

      What you're suggesting, if I'm understanding you correctly, is that the manufacturers are almost admitting that they have been selling significant volume into a "dark market" of some sort, and they don't know who the actual customer is.

      I don't want to use the term "black market" but that claims raises red flags, IMO.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 01:44:39 PM PST

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      •  If memory serves, a significant (4+ / 0-)

        amount of LEOs buy their own firearm accessories. (Like magazines.) They don't do it on LEO letterhead either, they just buy.

        Verifying who buys those more-than-allotted-amount magazines would require more time and effort on the part of the manufacturer. So I'm guessing that part of the reason for not doing this is just them saying screw it.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 01:47:59 PM PST

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      •  I think your looking at too deeply (6+ / 0-)

        It is nothing more than a convenient excuse for refusing to sell.  For example:

        Effective today, in an effort to see that no legal mistakes are made by LaRue Tactical and/or its employees, we will apply all current State and Local Laws (as applied to civilians) to state and local law enforcement / government agencies. In other words, LaRue Tactical will limit all sales to what law-abiding citizens residing in their districts can purchase or possess.

        State and local laws have always been a serious focus of this firm, and we are now dovetailing that focus with the constitutional rights of the residents covered in their different areas by the old and new regulations.

        We realize this effort will have an impact on this firm’s sales – and have decided the lost sales are less danger to this firm than potential lawsuits from erroneous shipments generated by something as simple as human error.

        The message is clear, but the reason given is to ensure compliance with the laws.
        •  Thank you - that makes more sense (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 02:00:13 PM PST

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        •  There seems to me to be a little bit of grand (6+ / 0-)

          standing.

          There is going to be a temporary glut, as high cap mags gradually get taken out of circulation.

          These companies are huffing/puffing about a product line that they will be downsizing anyway. But gotta' hand it to them to use it for maximum political leverage.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 02:26:07 PM PST

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          •  Well, one item I didn't mention (7+ / 0-)

            because I didn't want to quote too much, was a complaint from the manufacturer about their products...

            Fitzpatrick said the bill's requirement that all magazines have serial numbers adds enough production costs to make it worth leaving. He also said smaller magazines can be easily connected to each other — magazines can be hooked up to make a 60-round magazine, for example — and the company fears it would legally liable if people were to do that.
            This made me wonder why a manufacturer concerned with liability would choose to make their products like Lego blocks. Why not make them so that they cannot be easily connected to each other? Probably costs more, so...profits over people again.

            We demanded a plan to reduce gun violence. Now it's time to demand a vote.

            by tytalus on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 02:35:13 PM PST

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            •  And they are helping people like me see that (6+ / 0-)

              what is really needed is for the police departments to purchase a new design of mags, with serial numbers (so they are unmistakably police issued along with a service weapon), and as you point out, designed in such a way that they can't be clipped together.

              Someone is going to get a nice fat contract for the new designs. The old market is going to be a glut anyway, even in states where they are legal.

              Cops will have to get all their high cap mags through official channels. As an average New Yorker, I can say we'll be fine with paying for that.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 02:43:45 PM PST

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              •  True, if the whole lot of manufacturers (5+ / 0-)

                screw the police over, someone else will likely step up to fill that niche market. If there's a profit in it. Greed is eternal, rule of acquisition #10.

                We demanded a plan to reduce gun violence. Now it's time to demand a vote.

                by tytalus on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 02:49:08 PM PST

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              •  Serious question, are you really comfortable with (0+ / 0-)

                the idea of the police, having a large force advantage over the citizenry?  Do you think that this would lead to abuse?  Would the use of such weaponry be subject to some level of oversight and regulation?

                I ask because the force parity between the police, who are still citizens, and every other citizen seems to be the major sticking point that is at the crux of the issue and of this diary.

                My view is that I have no problem with the police, or any other citizen having a force advantage over the criminal element, but believe that the police should be on force parity with their fellow citizens.

                •  Three problems (0+ / 0-)

                  The police already have a force advantage over the citizens, and it has probably always been so. Wasn't it TX that just passed a law prohibiting police from shooting at suspect vehicles from the air?

                  An unarmed population (or only lightly armed) is much easier to defend against police brutality and unlawful police action.

                  A large fraction of shootings (accidental and intentional) are committed by fellow citizens and their unsupervised children and teens, who use the gun of a legal owner to shoot or kill someone.

                  If you dare, I propose you find out how many police shootings of civilians (suspected criminal and not) occur on average every day. I'll venture a guess that the majority of citizens are at much greater risk of being shot by a civilian with a gun, than by a police officer with a gun.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Tue Mar 05, 2013 at 07:54:18 AM PST

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                  •  The BPP would probably disagree with you. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ancblu

                    The first major chunk of Cali gun control was aimed directly at the 'scary armed black man' (see Mulford Act) since that 'scary black man' took up arms to defend himself against racist LEOs and others.

                    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                    by KVoimakas on Tue Mar 05, 2013 at 08:15:00 AM PST

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                    •  This is not an RkBA diary (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tytalus

                      It's about gun manufacturer's threatening legislators by threatening to boycott LEO customers and LEO agencies.

                      This diary about the rights of elected members of state and federal government to enact legislation, and about the rights of police to bear arms.

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Tue Mar 05, 2013 at 09:14:42 AM PST

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                •  The police already have a force advantage over (0+ / 0-)

                  most citizens, and far too many police officers use that advantage to harrass, abuse, and shoot brown skinned civilians everyday.

                  These abuses are a problem, but the problem is easier to address when the civilians who are targeted by corrupt cops are unarmed.

                  Those incidents where the civilian is armed and targeted by a corrupt cop just lead to extra-judicial killings, which are very difficult to justify, but even harder to prosecute.

                  It's a fantasy that an armed citizenry can win in a shoot out with law enforcement. The moment you fire the first bullet, you've broken the law.

                  We all have a right to self defense. The RKBA does not include any right to threaten others with a firearm. The RKBA does not include a right to shoot at police officers.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Tue Mar 05, 2013 at 08:27:55 AM PST

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        •  So I assume they will stop (4+ / 0-)

          going to gun shows, since they're so worried about what citizens and LEOs can purchase legally.
          HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

          “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

          by skohayes on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 03:26:23 PM PST

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    •  So there will be no OTC purchases for high (3+ / 0-)

      capacity magazines. LEOs will have to get their high capacity magazines issued through their department supply chain.

      Not sure how that's a huge problem. Magazines last a long time.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 02:08:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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