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View Diary: "Socialism is dead"/"Socialism is against human nature." (162 comments)

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  •  the 1% in the 50s and 60s still did very well (2+ / 0-)
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    caryltoo, bluegrass50

    they saved on taxes by reinvesting in their businesses... unlike now where they save by off-shoring and pillaging.
    So they still made money and lived very well by the standards of the day. And there was still room to be a multi multi millionaire and even a billionaire or two... but they had to really contribute something via their companies and investments instead of mostly buying legislation, politicians and tax loopholes... WORK for it... earn it by being a net positive to the people who they live off of.

    Having rich people spending 100 million on a yacht and living in palaces and debating on what size private jet to have... with or without the solid gold fixtures in the on plane jacuzzi... and peons salivating over "lifestyles of the rich and famous" TeeVee fluff stuff and Hello magazine type spreads on people's favorite plutonomy icons is all a tip off that something is out of balance...

    Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

    by IreGyre on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 06:04:10 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I don't condone unchecked greed (0+ / 0-)

      But that doesn't justify the greater degrees of poverty that result from trying to oppress these people...  I certainly share your disgust of people who would buy a $100 million yacht, but trying to unnaturally retard the instincts of those people shrinks societies overall output at the expense of all...  Until we shed the instincts that grew in a primitive existence much different from our modern society, we have to strive to ensure transparency as best we can (in government as well as commerce for that matter).  The ideology of socialism addresses this, but the reality of our existence dictates otherwise.  And socialists seem to ignore the greed of laziness that is certainly a drag on the productivity of humanity when incentives for free riding are too great...

      •  My father was a multi-millionaire (0+ / 0-)

        and go figure - he sent me to a genuinely socialist high school.

        He always told me that in business, business people didn't care so much about money, they cared about being the alpha.

        Money was just the way of keeping score.

      •  It really is all about rewards and social standing (0+ / 0-)

        most poorer people have the same desire to be able to take care of themselves and to be approved of socially ... that is they do not want others to get away with cheating and they do not want to be seen as cheaters.

        Crooks at the bottom or the top do not mind cheating a lot more to get ahead, get things or achievements that raise their social status or gain the admiration of others.

        To imagine that most people, especially poor ones are inherently lazy or that all rich people are greedy is just plain wrong. There are exceptions and people point to them as somehow being the rule.

        ALL humans will cheat a little to gain something... tell a small lie, take a bit more now and then... but they also all have limits to their behavior that depend on the approval or disapproval of others AND themselves...

        The problem of wealth is that over time more and more of them are of the rentier/investment class and not the innovator or creative business side of things... and their success is as much due to money making money and having enough money to be changing the rules to allow faster larger  returns on investment... well past the economic health balance of a society. Placing balanced and well thought out limits on the out of control suction of money upwards is not harmful to a society... no it is in fact GOOD for the society... it makes prosperity sustainable and better overall for everyone. The rich can be rich and stay rich... just not so rich they strangle the golden goose eventually.

        And if the rich keep score with each other via their money... they will just have to do it within rules that benefit a long term growth and prosperity formula. The truth is that the best way for the most competitive to get VERY rich VERY fast is to upset things... disaster capitalism is all about shaking things up and gaming the economy into a pyramid scheme where they pull the strings and engineer wealth transfer from the poorer and also their business rivals. And hiding things beyond normal business secrets is part of this con game and contrary to Democracy... hide the means, the strategy, the tactics and the truth to change the law and fool people into giving away their own prosperity.

        Social Democracy with Capitalism harnessed to a transparent system with an informed electorate does kind of blunt the winner takes all pillage and loot approach but it is really the better way and it allows creative businesses who are creative in solutions and ideas, marketing and improvements to compete better instead of having to be more like cutthroat business Mafia worshiping their own bonuses at all costs.

        Rewarding bullies and cheaters maims society at every level... but small time punks and cheaters who are admired in a slum do far less damage to a society than Banksters looting an entire economy.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:44:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The name of the game is transparency… (0+ / 0-)

          Indeed ultra-greedy people attempt to game the system toward monopoly and information imbalance, but herein lies a key function of government.  Yes regulation can upset economics, but we have to strive toward policies that minimize disruption while fostering transparency.

          The idea that the investment class provides no value is preposterous.  Yes they may take unnaturally high rents and that needs to be considered, but the fact is that economic forces would destroy them if they provided no inherent value (that value being the lending capital to people who need it to grow their businesses because they couldn’t enter that business with their own insufficient capital).  A major reason we are seeing a growing gap in wages and total wealth possession is partially due to the poor economy and partially due to the fact that much of this investment capital is sitting on the sidelines due to uncertainty coming from government and how that will impact investments.  This is why money is flowing to the stock market right now because alternate investments are less attractive.  We need clear policy out of Washington to help drive a true recovery, which will decrease unemployment and drive wages upward….

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