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View Diary: Shocking! Catholics don't care what their Church says about ... anything (218 comments)

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  •  I am one of those Catholics (35+ / 0-)

    I'm very active in my parish.  I'm on the parish council, serve as a lector at Mass, and I taught CCD for 4 years.  I also served on the Child Protection team in the parish for 7 years.  And I have never hidden that I'm a staunch liberal and stand in opposition to every political stand the Church takes.  The powers that be are totally out of touch with the people in the pews.

    For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

    by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:14:36 PM PST

    •  I'm not Catholic but what you said (14+ / 0-)
      The powers that be are totally out of touch with the people in the pews.
      agrees with everything I've read -- especially about American Catholics.

      I think the nuns are more in tune with the people, and that's why the hierarchy needs to shut them down.

      Men.  feh

      Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

      by Youffraita on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:33:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the nuns... (20+ / 0-)

        Are totally besides themselves with this Pope.  I have an aunt by marriage who is a nun.  She was given a 'test' to determine just how 'catholic' she was.  And they were told that their mission was to stop contraception, abortion and teh gay - not to minister to the poor in their community.  She is a conservative Catholic and she was totally pissed about this.

        'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

        by RichM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:45:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah...what you said is (9+ / 0-)

          basically what I've read elsewhere.

          I think the nuns are great.

          Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

          by Youffraita on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:47:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  So are all the nuns (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites, sobermom, LSophia

          I saw the Nuns on the Bus tour last summer when they were going around the country presenting their "Faithful Budget" as a rebuke specifically to the Ran Budget. They were great. They spoke across the street from a long-running hunger center. That wasn't accidental. One of our Ohio congresspeople has proposed the leader of that tour, Sister Simone Campbell, for Pope. In his dreams.

          Jon Husted is a dick.

          by anastasia p on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:50:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only thing that makes me hold back (7+ / 0-)

            from really trashing the Catholic Church in America are the nuns.  I was very fortunate to know Pat Farrell, who was the president of the nun's union (Conference of Women Religious?).  She earns and is due a great deal of respect.  It's truly offensive that she is not at least the equivalent of a priest, and she'd be a better archbishop than any of that whole lot.

            “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

            by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:01:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Joan Chittister (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sobermom, tobendaro

              would also make an awesome Cardinal.  

              It's incredibly irritating that the RC church doesn't ordain women.  It would solve a huge amount of their problems if they did - and if they allowed priests (of either gender) to marry.

              •  She is all kinds of amazing n/t (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LSophia, tobendaro

                For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

                by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:31:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's extremely irritating (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LSophia, Remediator

                ..to a lot of us Catholics too.

                Years ago we had a pastor who wrote a letter that was published in the Columbus Dispatch, urging the Church to consider resuming allowing priests to marry. When I congratulated him on that, he said that he was in favor of ordaining women too. He later left the priesthood to marry. We now have a pissant priest who's been harassing a gay member of our choir.

                Cogito, ergo Democrata.

                by Ahianne on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:28:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I worked for nuns at my first paycheck-job, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            millwood, tobendaro, sobermom, Ahianne

            washing dishes in a retreat center.

            A fishbone set of religious women who helped the poor directly - not only by providing food and clothing but by teaching job-interview skills and the like. One was a goldsmith who made her money by making chalices for wealthier parishes - but provided engagement rings and wedding bands for whatever her poor constituents could pay (one traded a bag of Blue Chip Stamp books).

            In the immortal words of Henry Blake on M*A*S*H, "they don't come any nunner."

            (I later gave them a wee bit of immortality by writing a story about a convent in Hell, providing comfort to the damned.)

            Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

            by gardnerhill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 09:25:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Why do they stay?? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sobermom, Pandora

          Why not break off? What's keeping them?

          •  Even Luther didn't want to break away (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sobermom, BigOkie

            from the Church. He wanted to reform it.
            One of his hymns has the verse:
            "Give Thy Church, Lord, to see/Days of peace and unity."
            He seemed to really have wanted unity.
            Luther broke away when he realized there was no more he could do without betraying his beliefs--"Here I stand, I can do no more"--and was excommunicated.
            I think most reformers love the Church and the Christian message and aren't willing to surrender it to the corruption of its leaders.

          •  A Catholic splinter church run by nuns? (5+ / 0-)

            Now that might bring even me, and my children who have never seen the insideo f a church, back into the fold!

            If you want something other than the obvious to happen; you've got to do something other than the obvious. Douglas Adams

            by trillian on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:51:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's my question too ~ (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            If the leadership is so morally bankrupt, why would anyone want to continue to be associated?  It's not like it (the leadership) is going to be reformed anytime soon.  Maybe my question or lack of understanding is totally stupid, but I truly don't get it.

            •  Probably several things (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sobermom, BigOkie, Ahianne

              ... 1) the essential message of the Church, in terms of approaching an individual's relationship with God, self and others rings true, 2) the liturgy and sacraments support and enhance the message described in #1 and 3) there's both moral and social support to be gained from belonging to a group of fellow believers.  Those are part of what keeps me a member.

              And I think that the title of this diary is an overstatement. Disagreement with the church hierarchy over which issues are most important doesn't mean that people don't care what they say.  Apply the same analysis to the corporatist Democratic party structure and ask if you get the same result.  Yes, they are out of touch, but they are certainly important and relevant.

              "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

              by gsbadj on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 03:03:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  My very elderly in-laws (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sobermom

      are FDR New Deal democrats, and devout Catholics.  They ignore the political BS and seem to be far more immune to it than either my wife and I.  We both get outraged.  They never seemed to care - they spent eight decades accepting what's good about the church, and rejecting what's bad.  Seems like a pretty good way to deal with it.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:43:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "a pretty good way to deal with it."??? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LSophia

        Bill, if they,and all concerned Catholics, really want "2 deal with it" just stop donating money 2 the church. Yes, it is likely that hoi paloi Catholics may have 2 suffer as church monies fall, but hit the big wigs in the church wallet and see
        how fast it gets their attention.
        And yes, Catholic Charities may also suffer as a result of a church that is undergoing financial depletion . All I can offer 2 U in response 2 my understanding about that suffering is that I seem to recall that the glorified Mother Teresa herself
        ...glorified suffering.

    •  Please answer a question for me. (8+ / 0-)

      I am truly curious, but my Catholic friends can't seem to answer. Why do American Catholics keep supporting these men? If you know your church has been taken over by those who do evil, doesn't God require that you speak out and refuse to aid them in any way? Why not break off and reform the Church in the hands of true men of God? It seems to me that the second it was known that the Pope had hidden child rapists, all the Catholic people should have fought back to save their Church from evil. Why doesn't that happen?

      "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

      by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:12:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please, any Catholics, I would love to hear (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sobermom

        your reasoning. I've been told that some stay because of the good things the Church does, but couldn't a reformed Church do the same good deeds without defending the bad?

        Anyone?

        "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

        by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:19:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You posted this as I was writing my response (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tobendaro, TRsCousin

          What reformed church are you talking about?  Who would start it?  I used to go to Dignity but then they brought in liturgical dance and I was done.  It's ridiculous.  And eventually you end up with the same problem as now, who is to say that whatever reform church you're thinking of doesn't get taken over by crazy lay people?  It isn't like some of the evangelical churches that pop up here and there run by a minister who puts himself in charge.  The faith doesn't work that way.  I know that it is hard to understand from the outside.  But that doesn't mean that those who choose to reform from within are there supporting the hierarchy and the abuse of children.  Hardly.

          For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

          by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:30:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I respect what you said in your other comment, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sobermom

            and I don't mean to suggest that you start a new Church. I'm wondering what would happen if a hundred million American Catholics stood up, said "We will not allow evil in our ranks," and simply refused to acknowledge the authority of anyone who had done evil. If you only keep good, honest leaders, fight for control of the wealth, and take back your church. Of course, such a thing could go wrong, but if you are truly doing God's will, it would be bound to be better than what you currently have. I know it wouldn't be easy, in fact I assume it would be one of the greatest fights of human history. But isn't it the right thing to do?

            Fighting individually is good, but how much farther must the Church slide before it becomes clear that the cleaning that needs to be done must be on a huge, systemic scale?

            "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

            by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:54:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Our archdiocese isn't perfect (6+ / 0-)

              but it is much improved.  We rid ourselves of the cardinal who allowed the child abuse to happen.  We had many priests defrocked.  We have strong institutional support for both the victims of sexual abuse by clergy, and for the prevention of further abuse.  We were able to rewrite the policies and procedures on how to handle any reports of sexual abuse by a priest.  I believe that much of that came from the day where the active members of parishes gathered together to make it clear that we were done with our former cardinal.  We presented such a clear and united front that our current cardinal came in knowing that the archdiocese was speaking as one voice regarding the protection of children rather than priests.

              I also have the current issue in my parish where, after being in the parish for 21 years, there has been turmoil in the past year with a couple who moved to the parish and want to take over everything.  They have caused a lot of problems in the parish and it has become divided in a way that it never was before.  So I'm living the experience currently of power-seeking-driven-by-ego-and-self laypeople.  Which is why I'm not hot for the prospect of a church run by laypeople, or wackos like William Donahue, any more than I'm thrilled with Rome.

              The Church also has a long history of corruption, which then is transformed by people who stay and fight the good fight.  It happened in the time of St Francis and it happened more recently in the time of Dorothy Day.

              And I see it in other institutions as well.  I have great Senators and Representatives who were elected by the people, but should I not vote because they have to work with assholes like Ryan, Boehner, and McConnell--should we all just form a new government because they're power-seeking-driven-by-ego-and-self lunatics?  I have limited power to have a say in who represents other states.  I also have limited power to make changes in the Church.  But just as it has been people who are corrupting a perfectly fine system of checks and balances, it is also people who are corrupting a perfectly fine religion of sacraments.

              I do what I can in my corner of influence fighting the good fight.  Just as I do with voting and working for candidates in my state, I show up and speak up and do what I can to facilitate change in my archdiocese.  And I do know that I have made a difference.  My archdiocese is far better than most on being transparent about the sexual abuse of children by clergy.  They still suck on choice, marriage equality, and focusing too much on conservative political causes.  But I'm not going to lose out on something meaningful because they're problematic.

              For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

              by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 09:15:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I stay for the sacraments (9+ / 0-)

        And I will not let men drive me out of the Church.  I believe in the sacraments and they feed my spirituality in a way that other religious practices don't.  And I have spoken out.  There are plenty of ways to reform.  I choose to do so from within.  I served on the Review Board for my archdiocese where I was quite outspoken on behalf of the victims and the need for strong consequences for priests who abused children.  

        I will also tell you that while I haven't been to Rome, I did attend a day in our archdiocese, called by the Cardinal, where he wanted to hear from active Catholics in the parishes.  I was sitting close enough to see his reaction close up, and to see the shock on his face when group after group stood up and called for his resignation.  We were who he considered to be his people, and none of us were having it.  He was absolutely stunned and his face went white with shock.  He did resign.  Unfortunately, Rome moved him into a position there.

        I'm not interested in starting a new church.  I'm interested in reforming the one I'm in.  I give to my parish collection, because it keeps the heat on and the parking lot plowed.  But I haven't paid a cent to the Archdiocese or to the American Catholic Church collections.  I don't trust them.

        But I'm also not about to let them win.  Why should I lose connection with what enhances my spirituality and makes my life better just because they're assholes?  I made a decision decades ago that I was not going to allow them to win and to deprive me of something that feeds my soul.

        So I stick around and speak truth to power and speak up in lay groups so that others in the pews know that there are other pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro all things Democrat sitting beside them.  And the priests know it as well.  When this newly resigned awful Pope was appointed, I received a condolence call from a priest friend to see if I'd heard the news.  I told him I was surprised he hadn't heard my screams across the city.

        So we do fight back as much as we can, and we have made some differences.  In the meantime, they are not going to rob me of the sacraments.

        For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

        by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:21:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you. That is a wonderful reason. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sobermom, tobendaro

          Not being Catholic, the sacraments had never even occurred to me. Fighting from the inside is something that all of us at DK should understand. I can only hope that there are many more like you. I wish you all the best. The world will be a much better place if you succeed.

          "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

          by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:36:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  sobermom I am a "None" no, not a Nun... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Penny GC, sobermom

          ... Ur "G-d" does not play a part in my daily life other than as a concept of idle interest 2 me BUT I would like U 2 kno that I greatly admire U and what U do.

          As a DK writer says in his sign off "tell me what U do & I will
          tell U what U R"... 4 me U R are a good person seemingly of brave heart.

          Take comfort from UR Sacraments & Rituals. We R all entitled, IMO, to comfort in our lives ( that includes lower animals than man also) as long as we do not harm others 2 get it.

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