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View Diary: Shocking! Catholics don't care what their Church says about ... anything (218 comments)

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  •  Benny 16 tried to pull back on the idea that the (0+ / 0-)

    faith by which one is justified can be Protestant? Can you give a reference for that? (Also, I'd like to know what he had to say about the Eastern Orthodox, since that's what I was raised into. Ecumenism is more of a concern to me that interfaith relations.)

    Since I'm a Germanophile, the relationship between the Catholic church and (German) Lutherans/Calvinists interests me (since in religious terms, Germany is divided between the Protestant north and the Catholic south, as I'm sure you know).

    I don't follow RC church developments closely at all. I do have an interest in Lutheranism though, since because of my Germanophilia, I believe that Luther got Christianity right. (I also try to have a minimal understanding of American evangelicalism, because of its impact on American politics.)

    American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

    by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:39:58 PM PST

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    •  No I can't. (2+ / 0-)
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      corvo, Ahianne

      I remember reading it. JP2 said it around 200 give or take a couple of years.  Benny 16 kinda pulled back saying, "Well, yeah, but we're better than anyone else and we can guarantee it and none of those others can."  It surprised me because "Baptism of Desire" which is what I was taught from a young age was carefully restated by JP2 to say that if you ove Deity in whatever form you know him,  and try to lead a life in the spirit of Christ (which I took to mean a decent, loving, human life), you will go to heaven and thus are saved.  Ratzinger, whom I despise, said  he guessed ti was true but all other paths had som falsity in them and people could be led astray....kinda epulling back.  I was appalled.

      I think he  sees Protestants--the original ones like Lutherans--and Anglicans as next in line, along with the Orthodox--I believe some of the fundier Protestants are further down,. then Jews and Muslims.  He didn't go into real detail.

      I am not a Germanophile--but then I have a Jewish grandmother. Whether or not my father would have made it into the camps depended what mood they were in that day.  My Dad's mother's family immigrated from Russia ahead of the pogroms. I've known  Holocaust survivors.   DOesn't mean I dislike Germans but the culture that led up to WWI and WWII really encouraged blind following of leader and never questioning, which made the country sitting ducks for the Nazis in many waya. I went on a kick of reading about the time peior and the culture in the 90s, including the difference between perpetraots and recuers. Fascintaing stuff there.  I live in the aMerican SOuth, which has a similar attitude in many ways--people in fundy churches are raised never to question, and to just accpet., I worry about the abundance of Christian schools springing up around here.

      The LUtheran church--NOT Missouri Synod__ in some of its incarnations isn't all that different from Catholic--and the oens I knew emphasized works as well as faith--just beleiving isn't enough; youi have to put your money where your mouth is--whch is why they're so big on social services.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 08:24:24 PM PST

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      •  Pity (1+ / 0-)
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        It's hard for someone who's not well versed in Papal pronouncements to know what to make of them anyway.

        This is off-topic, but Luther, even though he came up with sola scriptura, never thought that that doctrine means that you interpret the Bible without reading it from the point of view of the tradition of the (Roman Catholic) church. But in the English speaking world, sola scriptura eventually gave rise to the monster of fundamentalism, according to which it is possible to interpret the Bible without adopting the perspective of any tradition at all.

        American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

        by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 08:49:04 PM PST

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        •  Fundamentalism is only 100-150 years old. (4+ / 0-)

          For me, the problem isn't reading the Bible according to a particular tradition, but reading it without any knowledge of historical context.  THe Southern Baptist Convention actually has seminaries or colleges where people study for ordination. Most of the  wild-eyed churches don't. You can self-ordain.  Their preachers are just as ignorant as their congregation.  It's the blind leading the blind. Their preachers never study the Bible with a knowledge of the original languages in which it was written--just in the kKV which anyone who knows something about history realizes is seriously flawed because the schoalrs translating it had to please the king, who had some serious hangups on certain subjects.

          Troutfishing and dogemperor have some excellent diaries on this subject of American fundamentalism.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:22:39 AM PST

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      •  Luther didn't want to discard the need for (2+ / 0-)
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        irishwitch, Ahianne

        Christians to do good works just because they were justified through faith.
        He said that faith without good works is a dead faith.
        Lutherans are always reminded of that component of faith.

    •  Not entirely sure that I would agree that Luther (1+ / 0-)
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      got Christianity right.
      He was horribly anti-Semitic.

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